The Heartache of Loss and the Journey to Reconnection with Jody | The Day After Ep. 13

In this episode of The Day After, hosts Ashley and CJ welcome Jody to share her personal journey through grief, the challenges of solo parenting, and the healing process following the tragic loss of her husband. This episode dives into the raw and emotional experiences Jody faced after her husband was killed in a workplace violence incident, contrasting with CJ's own journey after losing his wife to breast cancer.

Jody and CJ discuss the heartbreaking decisions involved in end-of-life care and the emotional turmoil that follows. They highlight the practical difficulties encountered immediately after such a loss, from invasive questions regarding organ donation to needing strong support from family and friends. Jody opens up about the surreal and overwhelming transition to solo parenting and striving to find a balance between grieving and caring for her children. The distinction between solo and single parenting is explored, emphasizing the unique challenges and emotional toll faced by those who have lost a spouse.

The episode offers insight into the importance of setting boundaries, asking for help, and prioritizing self-care while dealing with profound loss. Both Jody and CJ reflect on their experiences with guilt and the struggle to reconcile moments of happiness amidst their grief, sharing how personal retreats and unconventional spaces helped them express and release their emotions.

Listeners will hear about the significance of maintaining connections with lost loved ones through rituals, memories, and shared stories. Jody shares heartwarming encounters and CJ speaks to the solace found in the enduring love of his late wife.

The profound impact of selling Jody's business, the psychological and physical toll of grief, and the ultimate importance of focusing on health and meaningful connections are themes richly woven throughout the conversation. This episode also delves into experiences with mediums, the support from their community, and the realization that listening is more vital than trying to “fix” grief.

Join us in this heartfelt episode as Jody's story conveys resilience, the importance of support systems, and the journey towards healing. 

*Content Warning: This episode discusses themes of grief, loss, and trauma which may be triggering for some listeners.*

A personal note from the hosts: After much reflection, we've decided that this season of "The Day After" will be our final one. It has been a profound honor to share this journey through grief with all of you. As CJ steps back to focus on other ventures, we want to express our deepest gratitude for your support, your stories, and your willingness to navigate these difficult conversations alongside us. Though the podcast is ending, we hope the conversations about grief and loss continue, and that our episodes remain a resource for those who need them. If you've found comfort in our discussions, Ashley and Liz will continue Sit, Lay, Rest - our pet grief podcast - you can follow them on Instagram at @sitlayrest. Thank you for being part of our community.

Music by Servidio Music

Transcript

Jody: 0:05

I lost my husband, tragically. it's been nine years now, C. J. and Ashley, and it was in a workplace violence incident at the business that he had founded and, I live in Chicago and we, unfortunately, we all, wherever we live, we see shootings on the news. They always seem to lead with those and you never think it's going to hit close to home to you and it did. I was informed, frankly, by a knock on the door from a police officer who did not tell me my husband was shot. He just said, your husband has been gravely injured. Can you get downtown? Well, sure. And I was asking and pushing and he wouldn't tell me. So I finally just shut the door and called my dad to get a ride and the press called. And so it was the news that called my cell phone and said, your husband has been shot. What would you care to comment?

CJ: 1:04

What?

Jody: 1:06

Yeah.

CJ: 1:07

No way,

Jody: 1:09

And I, I've never been asked that kind of question or the news calling me. And so I did the whole no, no comment and hung up. And that was. How I learned and then I did not tell my three daughters who were home at the time because I wanted to get more information they were 9 12 and 15 at that time and So I drove downtown and they like all teens googled so they found out online

Ashley: 1:41

Ugh.

Jody: 1:41

Because it was a out there immediately. I was getting calls from New York from, actually a friend in France texted me within an hour of this happening. Yeah, it was awful, awful. So life changed overnight. He did not pass away right away from his injuries, but he never regained consciousness. And it was hard. So not only did I become a solo parent, but I took over running our business as well. The business that he had founded. And that was challenging for my daughters every day to have their mom go back to the same place this happened. And I just changed their perspective, you know? Like, I couldn't put them to bed at night and say, Mommy's gonna always be here. And you'll be safe. That was so hard as a parent.

CJ: 2:41

Yeah, I remember that experience once. So my wife passed from breast cancer. So we had five and a half years of this and I remember,, her diagnosis and known that she was going to pass. And my kids were very young at the time. My oldest, I believe was six and I remember that, that same feeling of I can't, I hear like parents and I'm sure I even repeated it before this. So just no, like it's going to, I'll be here. Everything's going to be fine. And you can no longer say that. And there is no ability for me to tell them, Yeah. I don't know. Like maybe I will die. I don't know. I'm going to do my best to stay alive, but there is no more guarantee. And that shook our world. So it's interesting to hear you say that when you were going back into that workplace, what emotions and things came up for you as you were walking back into the place that this happened to your husband?

Jody: 3:36

know, that's a great question. And nobody's ever asked me that question. So I walk in and this was probably about two days after this happened. Cause it took me about 24 hours to go, Oh boy, I'm in charge of a company now because that was our plan. And I went in and frankly, I was a stay at home mom for eight years. I didn't have a suit or, work clothes and I dusted off whatever I had. And I stood in front of all the employees. And he reassured them that there's a plan. We're continuing with the direction that the company's going. We've got a great team here. And at that point, we were really hopeful that, Steve would get better. There were indications that it would be possible. There was a lot of hope really until the end. He was on the brain injury floor and the doctor looked at me and he said. Cause he was shot in the head and shot in the abdomen. and the doctor looked at me and said, well, you know, they removed almost the entire front lobe of his brain.

CJ: 4:43

What? Wait, so when did he have surgery?

Jody: 4:46

immediately, like after this happened and I just didn't register with me, you know, the doctor at that point came in and said, well, you sign these papers so we can do this. And absolutely, if you can save my husband, do it. I never re read through exactly what happened. And so three months later, this doctor said that. And I said, well, can you live without the front lobe of your brain? And he said, it depends what you called living. And he started crying.

CJ: 5:17

The doctor did.

Jody: 5:19

The doctor did and then I'm like great now I have another decision point to make and that certainly would not be a life that Steve would want to have lived because it's not a life. And so moved him to hospice at that point.

CJ: 5:38

And this was three months, you said. So you were going in and out of the hospital for three months, caring for your children, three children, and caring for the business.

Jody: 5:47

Yes. It was crazy. And the hospital was so nice because this was a very public event. Like my husband had an alias. Because people were randomly coming and the press would call. And we had a lovely room in the hospital,. But they actually had a little coffee room and I would have meetings with my executive team in the hospital in this little coffee room in the morning, that was really helpful because I could be there for rounds in the morning for the doctors, have my meeting and then go into the office if I could or needed to, or be at the hospital.

CJ: 6:27

Wow. So what Is your mindset through these three months?

Jody: 6:31

You know, it really was hopeful and that Steve was going to come home and that I was going to find a way to make that happen. And I remember he was at Northwestern Hospital in chicago, which is Two blocks away from this rehabilitation institute and I was looking over there. I'm like, okay, if anybody can make this better It's got to be over there because that's the premier institution and so quickly I'm googling like who do I know and then it called up one of the doctors on that floor was actually the father of my daughter's friend And I had no idea he worked there. So I texted his wife right away and she's Jody, I'm so glad you reached out to us We wanted to reach out to you We didn't know what to do. and I explained everything. And that day they sent a team from the Rehabilitation institute to evaluate him. And they moved him and they tried.

CJ: 7:28

So, you're basically running on hope of I'm doing all of this for the end state of having my family back together.

Jody: 7:37

Absolutely. I could for my kids, because they're scared. They don't know how to react. Their friends don't know how to interact with them, because this is not something that, anyone had ever experienced around us. And so it was really challenging, but their schools, their friends,, they were all so helpful. They made these little treasure boxes for my kids, each of my kids, classmates, and they put little things in it. And that was very, very sweet. And so many people stepped up to drive carpools

CJ: 8:15

Yeah.

Jody: 8:16

help. It was really nice.

CJ: 8:19

That's awesome. And then it leads into, like you said, this moment of decision. So all this hope, everything leads up to this moment. What happens?.

Jody: 8:28

I mean, my husband and I had put a will together after the birth of our first child, and we thought we had all of our healthcare directives and all of that in place. This firm was supposed to do that, and we didn't. He was in a state where I, as his wife, could be responsible for that, but making that decision. But his family could have waited and said no, and without that document, there would have been further discussion. And of course, they all realized too, and we all realized this was not the life for Steve. But everybody go out and look at what your documents actually say, because what you think you might have may not be there.

CJ: 9:11

I need to check mine now. Now that you say that, because when my wife got diagnosed the company I was working for at the time they basically hired a lawyer for us to write our living will and everything. It was awesome.

Jody: 9:22

That's so That's really kind that you had an employer that did that.

CJ: 9:26

they stepped up big time.

Jody: 9:27

Because that does not happen as

CJ: 9:29

No.

Jody: 9:29

all know in many cases.

CJ: 9:31

definitely does not. No, so you're then confronted to make the decision, which obviously it sounds like you guys made that decision it was, it feels good to hear that you had support of the family. Like you mentioned they could have made this a lot worse. What was that experience like to have to make that decision. and then to watch him take his last breath.

Jody: 9:51

It was heartbreaking, it was the right decision to make, but I remember I live across the street from a park and making that call to his family to say, this is what has to happen. And I. Brought a folding soccer chair. I went and sat in the park because I kind of wanted privacy for that too from my house and Had that conversation and then the ambulance that brought him from the city and we had him in hospice care at our local suburban hospital and It drove by my house by just by chance. I didn't ask them to do that. And out front were some friends like decorating our house for Halloween. And I remember I was just talking to my husband the whole time and saying, Oh, you know, Patty's there decorating the house for halloween and it looks so pretty and we're driving by the park and just kind of giving him the rundown and I truly believe he knew I was there because when I was with him in the hospital I would put my hand like on his neck and he would turn towards me. And he never did that with anyone else.

CJ: 11:04

Wow. That's beautiful.

Jody: 11:06

I, I really think he knew.

CJ: 11:08

So, You guys went into hospice and that's where, they did all that for you?

Jody: 11:12

yes, and in the hospital, and I stayed with him for the first two nights. And, I say we had our last date. We watched our favorite movie, and I brought wine, and I dipped it in the bottle, and I Put some in his mouth and I slept there for two nights and then I couldn't do it anymore. And so we had a friend, a really close friend that came and spent the night that night. And Steve was fine when he got up in the morning and he went into the bathroom to get dressed for his work day. And Steve had passed away while he was in the bathroom.

CJ: 11:47

Oh,

Ashley: 11:47

Oh,

Jody: 11:48

And I really think, that's what Steve wanted. He would have wanted. To not, I don't want to say trouble anybody, but in his own way, you know? And so that made me feel good. And then there's the, then I, he called me and I went running over there and I don't know. Nobody's prepared for that moment of what do you do? Who do you call? What do you say? Do you bring your kids? Do you not bring your kids? Like all of those questions and yes, I brought my kids they all came. We stayed in the hospital for probably about three hours.

CJ: 12:26

After he passed?

Jody: 12:27

he passed and then we left and they took him away and he was cremated and donated whatever parts I could for others. And then getting those calls from the people that do that, they ask some pretty invasive questions. As, as they should, but. It's like your husband died 24 hours ago and they're asking about, you know, drug use and other things.

Ashley: 12:56

Yeah, Aaron in an earlier episode Aaron spoke a little bit about that because her husband literally just had a brain aneurysm in Las Vegas while he was there for work and she had gone out for a few days with him before his conference started. And so she basically woke up to the hospital being like something's happened to your husband and flew back to Vegas. And it was like in a whirlwind of is he gonna make it? Maybe he will, maybe he won't. And then do you wanna give his organs? and she kind of said yes. But then it was like all of the questions that came with that, she was just like, I have not even told my children yet. My children do not even know that, their dad has passed. I need you to stop. So it's like a shame because she was like, I would've really loved to, but I was not in a position to even think about that in that moment.

Jody: 13:43

Yeah., and they did warn me, like they're going to ask some pretty invasive questions, but yeah.

CJ: 13:50

That's really hard. We ended up doing hospice at home. It was five days. So it was September 25th and then she passed on September 30th it was that same thing. It was just like, okay, maybe she doesn't want us here and you like go out of the room and then you leave, you make sure everything's quiet and then you like, maybe she wants us all here. Like I definitely understand that feeling and that sensation, especially when you mentioned of like, what do you do now? You know, like as soon as she took her last breath. I was actually in disbelief. I was like, no, I think she's still alive. And everybody's she's gone. She's gone. I was like, no, I don't think that, was her last breath. And my one child just collapsed was completely uncontrollable. So my family was trying to help them out. And yeah, you're just kind of like what do we do now? And I just remember me and the kids, we walked out. So I have three kids too. So we walked out. I went to my mom's,'cause she lives around the corner And Ashley's dad and my sister took care of everything. They cleaned up the room, they took care of the body. They did everything for us so that way we didn't have to And it's just a weird feeling to walk away for one last time. Even though you know they're not there. That feeling of just okay, I'm literally never going to see this face ever again is so hard.

Jody: 15:14

Yeah. And it, I don't know with me and maybe with you, CJ, it just didn't register. Like I couldn't connect the dots that that's really what's happening. I remember when I came back, like that very first time from, when he was initially shot, I was at the hospital for at least three days. So I hadn't seen my kids in three days and my dog, I came home, my kids were with my mother elsewhere, and the house is empty. And I remember just walking in and it just felt surreal, this isn't my house. and, everything has changed. And we had a neighbor a block away that was watching the dog, and so I'm walking, to go get the dog. And I just felt like all eyes are on me. Because everybody knew our story and nobody knew what to say. even, people I didn't even know knew my story. I went to a bar to have a drink once, not in my town, but, downtown Chicago. It's a big city. And I was sitting, just chatting with somebody at the bar, and they're like, Where do you work? And I told them, and they're like, Isn't that where the guy got shot?

CJ: 16:24

No way.

Jody: 16:25

Yeah, that was my husband.

CJ: 16:27

Wow.

Jody: 16:29

it was crazy.

CJ: 16:30

the sensation that you just described of walking into the home after he had been shot. What was the difference if there was one between that versus when he had passed and you came home for the first time because you had three months or so in between where he, his presence wasn't there. His spirit wasn't there anymore in the home. But I'm wondering if, was there a difference? What did that feel like?

Jody: 16:53

you know, it did feel different. And the first time, I really felt Like I was in a cloud. Like I was floating up here looking down at this life of this can't be happening. It's just a surreal thing. And then he passed and I came home and I was just lost What do I do? Who am I supposed to call? what am I supposed to do? And again, the news trucks were out front of our house waiting for a quote and my best friends went out and talked to them because they don't go away. They wait and keep ringing the doorbell. You know, he just died and I've got to deal with that. So I was thankful that my friends did that and they were interviewed,

CJ: 17:39

I remember that feeling like looking at everything in the house and being like, okay, that was the last time she touched that. I wonder what she was thinking or like her makeup brushes were out, on her vanity. And it's just like, when was The last time she did it? And you're like, trying to recall these things and live in that moment with them. It's such a weird thing to see everything laid to rest, not only has like our partners been laid to rest, but all of their possessions and every moment and every touch of every surface on the house has been laid to rest. It's such a bizarre experience that just it takes so much time to assimilate, I don't think it ever becomes normal and then eventually enough dust collects over it or things change. The other question that I have for you is so something that's feels super common and we've heard this and was for me is this sense of isolation as soon as your partner dies where it's just like now all of a sudden you're like I can't relate to anybody like the world just feels different now everything feels so different and you talk about you were recognized everywhere you go you had news trucks there and there was this commotion around this tragic event To me, it feels like that would be even more isolating, but what was your reaction to losing your husband and then having all of this commotion did you feel that isolation? was it worse because of all of that?

Jody: 18:57

So I felt A, because you really realized life is short. And so you don't deal with the petty stuff, you just don't have the patience or the time for it. And it's just not important. And also B, because I went from being stay at home mom to working mom. So I now, needed and was establishing kind of work friends and a work network and work people because I had, to really focus on that. So when I was at work, I was at work and I knew that I had my kids taken care of my, I live in the town where I grew up. So my family's all here And so many people stepped up. And then when I'm at home, I, I was with my kids and I really tried to keep that as separate as I could. And unfortunately, work kind of came in sometimes, but my kids really understood like they got it. Like mom's it. A. My. My oldest was entering high school when this happened and with daughters and their mothers at that time, that can be a little challenging, but frankly, that kind of stopped. There was none of us had time for that and we just really valued each other and all of our relationship. So my friendships in time just changed naturally because where I was spending my time changed.

CJ: 20:28

What did grief look like in your home with you and the kids the initial stages?

Jody: 20:36

For me it felt a weight, like a weight on my chest and I did not take care of myself and I wish I would have. I was taking care of the kids. I was taking care of the business. I was taking care of everything else because I felt if I can hold that together it's going to be okay. We're going to make it. And my health suffered. And CJ and Ashley, I don't think you know this, but I've had breast cancer twice and my breast cancer came back four years after this happened to my husband and I fully attributed stress. I didn't take care of myself and stress does not good things to our body. And so please, people out there in the throes of grief, take care of yourself. And it seems it's easy and it's we all want to take care of everyone else. But You really need to take care of yourself too.

CJ: 21:36

Thank you for sharing that I'm curious, what was that experience like So now it's four years, which is still an extremely short amount of time, and this comes up again. How do your kids react to this? How do you react to this? How do you tell them?

Jody: 21:50

About breast cancer you know, cancer is a big deal. But Given what happened to Steve this felt easy because A, I'd been through it before. I knew what was gonna happen for the most part. I mean, the treatment plan was a little different, but I, and I guess in my mind, I knew I was going to be okay. Like I'm going to have this mastectomy and, it's a big surgery and the reconstruction, all that, but I'm going to be okay. And, again, it was also the pressure cause My kids again I'm all they have, right? And that's scary for them.

CJ: 22:29

I have such bad health anxiety after going through everything. I've always been a little bit on edge about it. And then watching my wife go through everything that she did. I would be at the doctor's all the time doing all these supplemental things, proactive healthcare, everything. Now, literally, if I would drive by a doctor's office. I get panicked. It's just that bad. So it's something I've been working through the past three years, and I'm just like, I'm going to get cancer. I'm going to die young and I'm going to get cancer because everybody else around me is so of course that's going to happen. Then, my one child who ended up having this nerve tumor, they are petrified of me doing anything. They're like, you're not getting a motorcycle again. Stop driving so crazy. What are you doing with this? What are you doing with that? And they're just so scared of losing me did you have any of those anxieties? Those fears as becoming a solo parent, or like you said, like you're all your children have left did you feel that added pressure to You

Jody: 23:30

I guess I never let my brain go there. Because I'm like, this is just going to be okay. It has to be okay. And my degree of cancer was not severe. Granted, I've now had cancer twice, so I have a greater risk factor for cancer elsewhere. That's not an insignificant risk factor. But I really don't think about it that often. I'm just living my life trying to take care of myself as best as I can and loving on my kids and, really focused on what's important in life.

CJ: 24:08

When was the turnaround for you to start taking care of yourself? When

Jody: 24:14

so I sold the business two and a half years after Steve died. And literally I said, I can breathe now because that was a super, I mean, on a good day selling a business is really hard. And then, you layer on that whole factor of loss and tragedy and everything. It's just a lot and my heart was skipping beats just because of stress and all the things. and so the day that this transaction was happening and we had friends and family investors. And so the goal was always to sell for everybody. I went and took an exercise class and I looked at the clock. I'm like, okay, the business just got sold. And because that's how it. It happens in the paperwork over there. And I, I just took the biggest breath and I cried

CJ: 25:06

Yeah.

Jody: 25:07

because, it was, it's, it's, it was a part of Steve. That was his heart and his love and it was sold, but that was always the goal and that's what he would have wanted and we wanted, but you know, CJ, I don't know if you feel this way, but every time there's something attached to my husband that is gone, like the dog died, well, Steve and I got the dog together. I sold the minivan. We got that together. Though, any time there's something like that, it's just like another piece of them is taken.

CJ: 25:46

Yep. 100%. I have the same reaction. That was one of the hardest things to when our dog died because and it came out of nowhere, took him in for an appointment. I was like, something is weird with him. And then we have to put him down. He has liver cancer. Well, my wife ultimately died of liver cancer.

Ashley: 26:02

Him. It's her fault. Was like, I want this one with me.

CJ: 26:05

100%. Yep. And I was like, she's, she left us with one cause we have two, but they were her dogs. Like we got them because of her. and yeah, I'm like, it's just these pieces one by one or like life is moving forward, but she's still 35 and every single piece. And then what hurts is for me is each time something new is gone. And That has to be let go, it's further away from the event, it's further away from her, it's further away of hearing her voice, seeing her face, and hearing her laugh, and like, so now it's just a stronger reminder of, do you remember? Can I remember her voice? Do I remember what it felt like to hold her hand, to hold her, to kiss her, to just be with her and just sit on the couch together and just watch TV. Like that sensation and feeling just fades and it's awful and we lose the tangible as well.

Jody: 27:10

Yeah. It is. It is.

Ashley: 27:13

Jodi, I was going to ask about, Just on the topic of the business we're, I'm assuming that the employees were also very close with Steve. So was there like,, I mean, obviously this is two and a half years passed and you sold the business, but after those three months that he did pass and you were running the business were they grieving and what was that process in terms of like making it maybe harder for you to run the business? Or maybe easier because they knew him, but did that add like a layer of complexity?

Jody: 27:40

Absolutely. my husband, he was very open about mental health. he saw a therapist for many, many, many years. He was the most patient, loving, giving. Connected person. Like when he was talking to you, he's they're talking to you. And they loved him. His customers loved him. And people forget or they don't think about like in this incident, the employees are the first responders, like they're in the office, they hear that they know what I, they ran into the room, some of them. And, those are unfortunately like visual images, you can't get out of your head. And so that was very hard. The office was big. We had more space than we needed, so this happened kind of way over on one side of space that we didn't need. Everybody kind of moved over here, so we didn't have to physically go to that space, but I also think that the employees love for Steve. I mean, they, they poured their heart and soul into the business to. Growing it and turning it and none of them were going to see it fail either. And that was beautiful.

Ashley: 29:00

Yeah, amazing.

CJ: 29:01

In your grief over the past nine years. What are some of the things that you have done to process, heal, grow your capacity to hold it, and move forward with it?

Jody: 29:16

Yeah. I've done a lot of things not overnight, all of the things, first I, I saw a therapist for sure. So being able to talk to someone because Yes, my daughters and I, we really talked about Stephen, his standpoint from memories of, his song would come on the radio. We'd talk about him like that. So that was our way and still our way of keeping him alive and his spirit a part of us. But I needed a professional for sure. Taking care of myself physically. And sleep. I really prioritized sleep. And I, I did all the sleep hygiene things over time. And especially with young children, like solo parents, you're thinking, okay, I've got to be on. And then you don't sleep well. Cause you're kind of partially listening. Are they going to call me? And I let that go. I, and my kids weren't, You know, nine, 12, and 15, so they could easily get up and come get me if they needed me. so I told them that you come get me if you need me. I'm, I need to sleep. And I did a white noise machine. And I went to bed at, X time every night. And my daughters were going into high school and they're getting in a little later and all of that. And A, I had a ring doorbell so I could always check. But they came home on time when they're supposed to, and I would go to bed and if they needed me, like my phone was on do not disturb, but of course, anybody on my favorites can break through and, I did that. So I was able to kind of shut myself down and get the sleep I needed. So finding a way in grief or whatever works for you and sleep, because otherwise it's, you're running on empty anyway. And then if you're not getting the sleep, it's hard. And taking time to do something fun for yourself and allowing yourself to laugh. Because I remember like the first time I really laughed I'm like, oh, I'm having fun. Am I supposed to have fun? Maybe I'm not supposed to have fun. Like I'm supposed to be sad and So I was questioning all of that and I'm like, no I feel happy, you know in this moment I feel happy and I'm going to express that so

CJ: 31:52

That's huge. Actually. The being happy and in sleep. So that's something That I'm still working on. I mean, I've always been a bad sleeper, but the first year I was averaging two to four hours a night.

Jody: 32:03

Oh CJ

CJ: 32:04

I don't even know how I survived that. Because I can't survive on less than seven or eight hours. I have to have that. And if I don't, I get sick. Like I was sick for months at a time. I was sick from October until the new year. The first year, the second year, I can't remember, and I didn't know what it was, but I like sick in bed, coughing, fever, everything, but I'm glad you called that out because sleep is extremely important to be able to handle everything that's going to come at you, and to be able to like have the space to process your grief. But other thing is this idea of, at least for me and some other folks that I've talked to, this experience of, That first time you're laughing and you kind of take a step back of whoa, I forgot what this feels like. Is this okay? And for me, the thoughts were, is this okay? Because are people going to think that I'm not still hurt that I lost area? Are people going to look at me and be like, Oh, he's fine now, when I'm not fine, I'm just having a moment that I'm enjoying. And at the same time, I'm still holding all of this pain and this grief. It's still there. Even though my facial expression has changed, but there was so much shame and guilt that I had to work through to accept that I was allowed to be happy again in whatever capacity I was capable of. was that the same experience for you?

Jody: 33:30

Very much yes, because I I don't know if I felt like people would judge me, but I was judging me for sure of, wait, maybe I'm not supposed to be feeling that way. and I think there is a lot about grief, like if you? haven't gone through it, you don't know what to expect, and I had not gone through It So I didn't know what to expect, but in my brain, I felt like. Well, is It supposed to feel like this? I don't know what it's supposed to feel like, but I think it's supposed to feel like this. And am I feeling It right? And I remember, so after Steve died, I packed up all the grief books people had given me and I went and I actually took a five day personal retreat at this place in Arizona that I really liked by myself because I had not been by myself, since he was shot. And I needed to cry. I needed to scream. I didn't, I mean, yes, I cried in front of my children, but I needed to scream. Like I really needed to scream. And so I felt like I could do that there. And I am this kind of person too, that If I buy a cookbook, I like read the preface in the beginning. So I'm like, Oh, okay. I'm going to start grieving now. I'm going to open up this book on page one and it's going to tell me what to do. I know, but I don't know. I guess I thought like it would work that way.

CJ: 34:55

Yeah, I did a retreat. It was just four days in a ranch in Texas. And, I did that. I screamed and I cried and I was held and it was the first time I was public with my grief. Because for me, I had learned very quickly. My grief was my own. And then I started to develop a callous around it of well, fuck everybody else. They can't handle my grief. They don't want to, they just want me to be who I was before Ariana died. And I'm not, I'm completely different and I need to discover who I am. So it became that thing. There would be times I'd cry around the kids, but it was mostly I would go in my room, I would cry and then hopefully sleep for a few hours, wake up and repeat. and I remember getting to the retreat and just being like, I hate all of you. None of you care about me. None of you care about my grief. And I just had my head down the whole first night. And then the second day they put me in the middle and they called me out and and I just broke down. I just broke down and they held me and I screamed like all of the things, and it was the first big pivotal change in my relationship with my grief and the journey towards healing. Yeah I am a huge advocate of just finding a space to let it all out, and however that means, and it's usually primal, and that's okay, and it's beautiful, because grief is the lowest frequency emotion, it is the heaviest emotion, which means, our response to it will be primal it's perfectly okay.

Jody: 36:28

They have these places now. There's one by me. I don't know what it's called. It's like a place where you go And, break stuff. So they'll have all these things in there And you could just throw things and break things. and I, think it's great. And a widow's group locally that I was working with we talked about going there because that's perfect. That's what we need

CJ: 36:47

I took my kids every year, on the death anniversary, and we would go. Yeah, and we would just smash stuff and it was, they were still a little bit younger, but I was like in this space, when you're smashing, you can swear as much as you want because that also scientifically, it actually, our swear words are stored in a separate part of our brain and it does relieve pain. Which is why when you stub your toe, you're like, Oh, shit because it actually physically relieves pain. So I was like, in this space, smash and swear, only one of them would the other two are like, No, I feel weird. But yeah, smash therapy is amazing. I've been there a bunch.

Jody: 37:25

About swear words in another part of your brain.

CJ: 37:27

yeah they're actually stored in a separate part where we have our language processing. So The other question that we like to ask too is do you have rituals or ways to reconnect with Steve that you have developed over the years or had that you continue to do or just ways that you can connect right back to him?

Jody: 37:46

I talked to him, and, sometimes I'll be driving and like I reach over, I'm like, okay, honey, hold my hand.

CJ: 37:53

Yes.

Jody: 37:54

I need you to hold my hand right now. And early on I would get these. Feelings like I was in a program at my kid's school and all of a sudden I'm like He just walked in the door Like it it felt like the energy changed and he walked in the door and I truly believe like he's here with me sometimes like especially when I need and he liked the American Pie song, which they don't play that all that often. And usually it plays when my daughters and I need to hear it. and when I was at the vet recently having to put the dog to sleep, this song came on, not that one, came on the radio and it was Sara Bareilles Brave, which came out right when this was happening with Steven. and I would sing that song cause I'm like, I need to be brave. I need to be strong. and there's just something about that song helped me. And then here it comes on again. and we're very connected to his family and his friends reach out and they tell me stories and they reach out to my kids. And so that is really special that still continues and I really value that. It's important, and it's important for my kids to hear. If they send me, if his friends send me an email with a story, I have them all saved in a file for my kids and I share it with them, and, cause, those are stories that some of them I didn't even know. So, that was great.

CJ: 39:29

yeah I remember having those experiences. There's a group of friends that my wife had and they all wrote different stories and stuff and I remember them telling me stories about my wife when we first started dating because we started in high school and they're just like there was this one story that stuck out to me because I always questioned whether my wife loved me or not not because of how she acted or who she was because we were super connected and it's insane to even doubt it. But it was just like this anxiety that I had of am I enough for her? Does she love me? Like I'm broken and all this shit. And they were telling me this story a couple of years ago. How when we first started dating in high school She would literally carry around my high school senior photo everywhere she went and they were and like if you knew my wife, this was so out of character for her but yeah actually like she would they said like they would be at a party and playing games and shit and she would literally just put it out on the table if they were playing cards and just have it. like With her and I was like damn it I wish I knew that before because that is so fucking cute But yeah, it's so cool to hear those stories. Have you had any experiences with mediums that comes up quite often on the show? Is that something you were ever open to or had experience with?

Jody: 40:47

I'm open to it. I have not had an experience with it. My sister in law did. She was at, I don't know, it was, I don't know the name of the medium. A famous medium. That's on TV. so it was a big theater kind of like experience. And this medium like called out my sister in law. And so that happened for her, for sure. So it was, yeah, that, was something I know he's proud. I know he's proud. And my girls, so I did this speaking engagement recently and the girls recorded the introduction for me and, it made me proud. they just talked about how proud they are of their mom and how a good leader and it just felt. I'm doing good with my girls, and I always tell the girls, we're the Lavoie women. We got this. There's nothing that we can't solve together, and they repeated that in what they said. I'm like,

CJ: 41:50

Aw,

Jody: 41:50

they're listening.

Ashley: 41:51

that's awesome.

CJ: 41:53

Yeah. That is so beautiful.

Jody: 41:54

Yeah.

CJ: 41:55

Mm-Hmm?

Ashley: 41:56

How did they process the grief and how did how are they doing?

Jody: 41:59

Each of them processed very, very differently. one of my daughters, it was very physical for her. Like she you know, like CJ, you said you were getting sick. She would get migraines and they were because of the grief and not being able to process things. And then she would get nausea. That was another phase. and. It caused missing school, which then you get behind, and then there's all this other stuff. That was really, really hard. There's fear, you know? Making sure the alarm is set on the house. And we live in a safe neighborhood, but because of what happened you don't know what's gonna happen. Or, fear to get on an airplane. But they each had therapists and that was helpful, but it was really for them, the public nature of this, because they had no privacy. Everyone knew their story. If you're going into high school, like you just want to be anonymous and it couldn't be. And they've all moved away because they want to share their story when they're ready to share their story. And they don't share it with just anybody. They're very selective on who, it has to be a close person. So I understand that.

CJ: 43:16

Did they each have their own therapists, or did they all go to the same? Oh, wow.

Jody: 43:20

Yes. They each had different

CJ: 43:22

Yeah, that makes sense. By all three were going to the same one for a long time and then one of them split out and wanted to see their own, which I was like, yeah, that makes sense. So now two of them go to one and then the other goes to a separate one. But it's always hard to know if therapies helping them or not. And I'm like, are you talking about your grief There's a lot of experiences where if we're maybe at sports or there's just these moments that I have where I look at my kid and I'm like, I think this behavior is unprocessed grief. I think they're experiencing this and they don't quite understand what is happening, even though these behaviors want to point to something else. and then it just it takes that effort to be like, okay, well, let me. Sit with them and explore this. And kids don't often want to sit and explore their emotions and their feelings often because they might not know. and I have found that it's frustrating for them sometimes for some of them. But if we could like work through it, eventually we come to what I originally thought it's about their mom. Did you have a lot of those experiences with them?

Jody: 44:39

I did. Sometimes there'd be acting out about something that's really stupid And, it had nothing to do with this really stupid thing. And, yeah. I was a fixer. we're all parents. We just want to take away their pain and make it better. And they didn't want me to fix all the time. They just wanted me to listen. And it took me a little bit. So now, and for many years, but I'll say, okay, would you like me to just listen? Or would you Like, me to help you solve the problem? And then. 80 percent of the time they say, I just want you to listen. And then I can put on my listening hat instead of going they should do this, that, and the other thing.

CJ: 45:19

Yeah. time, just need somebody to listen. We just need somebody to hear. And for me and my grief, that's what I need. I need somebody who will sit and just be like, yeah, that fucking sucks. You're right. It's awful. Instead of no, don't worry. I'll be fine. Or you're young. You'll find somebody or but you got to spend time with her and you got to say goodbye. Like, I don't need justification for my grief. I'm like, I know just be with me. But it's harder to find folks who can truly do that. But at the end of the day, that's really what I need. I don't need anybody to. To try to fix my grief or to make it better because there is no better. And I'm not afraid of somebody saying something that's going to make me quote unquote, feel worse. Like I already feel bad. You bringing up my wife or bringing up a memory or asking me how my grief is doing does not make me feel worse because I'm already there and we learn to adapt and to grow with it, where it becomes part of our experience. And we learned to hold that. So I think that's brilliant advice.

Jody: 46:34

One thing I did that did not go well for my kids I signed them up for a camp for kids who have been victims of homicide because I wanted them to be around other kids that have experienced that exact kind of loss. And I think it was too early for them. And it was, that was really hard so they weren't able to really get the benefit that I think this camp would have provided and frankly I'm on the board of that organization and I wholeheartedly support it. But the timing just wasn't right for my children. And I don't know the right answer for that, because there are camps out there and that could be a really lovely solution for some people and, It just wasn't the right timing for my kids.

CJ: 47:22

Yeah. How did you know, like what were indications for you that it was like, Oh, this is, this isn't right. And then, how did you respond to that?

Jody: 47:29

Oh, they called me from camp to come pick up one of my kids.

CJ: 47:32

way. Okay. So it was very obvious.

Jody: 47:34

Oh yeah.

CJ: 47:36

Okay.

Jody: 47:37

And I was So frustrated because it was an overnight camp. So I'm like, yay. I get a night, I myself And I drove them all the way here. And then I got home. And I'm home for 10 minutes and they get the call to come back. I'm like, so I was kind of mad. I mean, I shouldn't have been mad, but I was mad. I'm like, Oh, I just wanted a night to myself.

CJ: 48:00

Kim was on the show a couple of times and, she really put into perspective to me. She said, widows, widowers. We are solo parents, which is interesting. I heard you say that term. We are not single parents. It is very challenging to be a single parent. I'm not comparing or, saying that it's not hard. I'm just saying there is something about being a solo parent that is a different experience. And,, and often I'll have to tell my kids and be like, I promise I love you. I just can't be around you right now. Like I need my space, like it's not that we're only parenting, but we're also. Parenting them in grief, which their grief constantly changes. It's not like we get to solve it once for them. And then they just, they're like, okay, I'm good. It's they solve it for one thing and then boom, they're in a new phase of life. And then you have to solve it again or not solve it, but process it again. I don't know why I use that term solve. And she like really like reframe that experience for me to help me for me personally, just the word change to help me understand my experience better of there is no more genetic code that exists out in the world for my child. And we are processing this life in our grief, and also the normal life and things changed in a way that like changed us. At a cellular level, so yeah, so it was actually like super encouraged to hear you say solo

Jody: 49:35

Yeah, I'm,

CJ: 49:35

I just adopted.

Jody: 49:36

Oh, I'm adamant about that

CJ: 49:39

Mm hmm. Mm

Jody: 49:39

24 seven 365 days a year.

CJ: 49:43

That's right. so before we let you go, because I know we are, we are running out of time here. what is one last piece of advice that you would have for somebody who has gone through maybe not exactly what you've gone through? but even that too, I think could be helpful.

Jody: 50:00

Yeah, besides what I've talked about, for help. I encounter so many grievers that feel like, well, they gave me so much help at the beginning. I hate to bother them again. They were, they, We're just so helpful. And so people want to help, they just don't know how. And so you just need to be specific with them and say, can you please drive my kids to soccer? Or could you please just, could you mow my lawn? Or whatever it is, but ask for the help and be specific

CJ: 50:36

That's great advice. Yeah, that is something that I'm still not great about. But it's funny you say the, well they helped so much in the beginning, how can I still ask for help and I think that's a lot of what I've struggled with because there were people who were there so much in the beginning for me and then, just everybody's life moves on and things get quiet again. And while I still have, my family here who's extremely helpful there, it's still hard to. To be like, Hey, like I, I need you to do this thing for me and, not feel guilty of well, why? and I'm like, cause I just need to lay on the couch for an hour. It's like, why do you need to lay on the couch forever? The idea of we don't have to always be productive or cleaning the house because it's endless. Especially with three kids, right? It's like, there's always emails from the school. There's always projects going on. There's always needs from every single kid, every single day at every single moment, like just that alone will consume your life. then you add work on top of there. Then like you said, taking care of yourself, getting to bed on time, like eating, cooking food, making sure that the house isn't falling down, making sure the house is clean. There's always something to do and asking for help so you can have time to yourself is absolutely okay and a good use of your time.

Ashley: 52:00

every time I'm on the airplane and they tell you to like, put your mask on before helping others, I'm always like there's some sort of like irony to that where it's like you've gotta take care of yourself first, otherwise you're not gonna be able to take care of others. I think that kind of goes hand in hand with asking for help. But it is hard. Honestly, even sometimes I mop the floors or I still do one or two things and I'm like, just sit down, stop doing something.

CJ: 52:25

It is hard. And I wonder like, do you have the experience of where you're projecting out the guilt onto like, people coming into you? and telling you like, Oh, hey, why are you taking a day to yourself? You should be doing something. You're being lazy. Like for me, I think it's, it's largely a projection where I'm putting this insecurity and guilt that I have onto other people, like thinking that's what they're thinking about me. And I don't know that's always true. I think there are people who feel that way, but I don't think that's always true. do you feel like that's a part of why this is so hard for us Ashley as a society or even as grievers?

Ashley: 53:02

there could be maybe some of that, and some of, that projection. Like, people, you, oh, they're going to think this or they're going to think that. I don't know if that comes from the grief, though, or that comes from just kind of other things.

CJ: 53:15

Yeah.

Ashley: 53:16

Yeah. I don't think I think more of that. I think I feel like why sit on the couch all day when I could do like these five things.

CJ: 53:23

That makes sense. okay. you, you began to talk about solo verse single parenting. And you, were saying you were very adamant about it. what does that mean for you and what makes you want to be so adamant about

Jody: 53:36

It means a couple things. So first, as a solo parent, I was in a great marriage. I am proud of that? and I want people to know that. And so I feel like that definition is a little bit of that. And secondly, it's, and I know this isn't the case for everyone, but it is that I'm on all the time. I wish I had every other weekend off, even though I love my children. But. We all need that space and in order for me to get it I asked for help, but I had to ask and then you have to make the arrangements and do all the things and so it is different and Financially like this it's me and I've got to make all the decisions by myself and it's a Yeah, and you've got to get the snow cleared and all of the things by yourself.

CJ: 54:34

Yeah. The decision making, is definitely, that hits home for me. Cause there are times when I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what the decision should be. I don't know if this is the right thing that I'm about to do for my child. and I just need somebody else who's as, as invested as I am in the well being of this child who's with them all the time to just help me. You know, like it's so taxing and exhausting.

Jody: 54:58

I, I just get, I'm tired of making all the decisions. So sometimes, especially around vacations, I'm like, okay, I'm not deciding where we're eating. Somebody else has to make that decision because that's something that could be taken off my plate.

CJ: 55:16

for me in the, in my house, I tell the kids I'm not parenting anymore for the day. And that's like my way to signal to them of, I can't, I'm done. I can't talk to you about anything that You need. I, have hit my limit. And I'm done parenting for the day and now they understand I'm like, okay, he's done. So

Jody: 55:36

But good for you for saying something, CJ, and, I'm going to use that because you're calling out like, I've met my capacity. If you push me anymore, this is not going to go in a good direction. So therefore we're calling it, a day. So that's very smart.

CJ: 55:53

Yeah, thank you I appreciate

Jody: 55:55

Yeah.

CJ: 55:56

But thank you so much for coming on the show.

Jody: 55:59

you both.

CJ: 55:59

grateful that you're willing to share and we appreciate it.

Jody: 56:04

You're welcome. Thanks for inviting me