Finding Feathers: Kellie's Emotional Path Through Grief and Healing | The Day After Ep. 18

In this deeply moving episode of The Day After, hosts Ashley Infantino and CJ Infantino dive into an intimate conversation with Kellie, exploring her profound personal journey through grief, loss, and resilience.

The episode opens with a light-hearted discussion about the stress and convenience of grocery shopping, touching on the advantages of using delivery services like Instacart. However, the conversation soon takes a poignant turn as Kellie opens up about the deep connection she maintains with her late mother through signs and mediums, particularly feathers, which she has integrated into her book as a tribute.

Kellie paints a vivid picture of her mother, a spirited, tattooed woman with an immense love for Tim McGraw, and shares her mother's eight-year battle with cancer, highlighting her incredible strength and humor throughout the illness. CJ shares his own experiences with his late wife's cancer battle, fostering a reflective dialogue on the resilience of cancer patients and the unwavering support they offer their families.

The conversation touches on Kellie's personal struggles with her partner's addiction and the emotional aftermath of his death due to an accidental fentanyl overdose. Kellie openly discusses the societal stigma associated with addiction, the difficulty of leaving abusive relationships, and how she navigates explaining these complex issues to her son.

Listeners will also hear about Kellie's journey of healing and self-discovery, the vital role of therapy, and the significance of writing her children's book about grief. Throughout the episode, Kellie and CJ explore themes of mortality, the varying experiences with hospice care, and their thoughts on assisted medical death.

With a balance of vulnerability and strength, Kellie shares the challenges and triumphs of balancing single parenthood with personal grief, the importance of maintaining personal peace, and being in tune with others' energies. 

This episode is a compelling exploration of enduring love, the power of connection, and finding one's way through the darkest of times. Tune in to hear Kellie’s impactful story and the discussion that aims to normalize conversations about grief, loss, and the paths to recovery.

Transcript

Kellie: 0:13

Gosh, almost nine years ago, I was pregnant with my son and my mom had died about three weeks before he was born from a really long battle of cancer. And then about 14 months later, my son's father died of a accidental overdose. So I kind of got double whammyed with a grief journey, but two very. different ones at the same time. And I decided to write a children's book about the journey of grief and that's kind of, you know, what, what inspired it.

CJ: 0:44

Yeah. So it was 14 months. So how old was your, your, is it your son?

Kellie: 0:51

Yeah, he had just turned one.

CJ: 0:52

Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. So, when did the, the book come about? When did you start writing it?

Kellie: 1:02

I started writing it when he was about two or three years old. I had gone to school. School to be a writer. I have my degree in English with a focus in creative writing and it wasn't really my initial path to write a children's book at first, but it kind of just happened one day. I know he started asking questions and I didn't really have any resources for him. There's not many children's book on grief, so I just decided to do it.

CJ: 1:25

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's always encouraging to see people kind of transmute that pain of grief into some creative endeavor to help other people. Take us back a little bit. So your son's one years old, you're still dealing with the loss of your mom. And then, and then you lose your husband suddenly. What did life look like at that time? What was the impact that it had on you, especially as a new mother?

Kellie: 1:52

It was crazy. You know, he had relapsed when my son was about six months old So it was like it was going on for a long time. So it was a lot of chaos You know just kind of trying to survive being a new mom and then you know not having mine to really guide me as a mother. He's my first child. So, you know, it was definitely, uh, I feel like when it comes to addiction and when you're married to somebody who relapses or what have you, you kind of start grieving them when they relapse because they're not really the same person anymore. You know,

CJ: 2:26

yeah, what is that? What does that look like? What is the grief look like in the process of them relapsing?

Kellie: 2:32

It's more so like, you know, you have this whole life plans and then you know how that goes. It doesn't really ever go as planned. You don't think that Those types of things are gonna happen especially, you know, when it comes to addiction, it's just such a slippery

CJ: 2:48

slope. So he relapsed when your son was six months old?

Kellie: 2:52

Yes.

CJ: 2:52

And then passed away six months after that? Or thereabouts? Okay. Yeah,

Kellie: 2:56

about seven months, yeah.

CJ: 2:57

So how did your grief change then? So you were grieving already during those six months?

Kellie: 3:02

Yeah, I mean, I feel like I didn't really grieve my mom right away because I had like I was giving birth immediately Afterwards, I kind of my brain was like, nope. Can't do this right now. We have to be a parent

Ashley: 3:15

Right,

Kellie: 3:15

you know and then you know He had relapsed and then I was like, okay still can't grieve her and now I got to focus on kind of surviving and You know, keeping my son safe and keeping myself safe in a really toxic situation. So I think I was just really, uh, in survival mode for a long time and didn't really start grieving anybody for a couple of years.

CJ: 3:38

Did the timing of that line up with when you decided to start writing the book?

Kellie: 3:42

I think so. I think I felt like I was like, I need to. do something. I needed an outlet. And you know, for him asking questions, I didn't know how to answer them. You know, it was kind of like, I'm him and I were both experiencing parent loss at the same time, but he didn't really remember his dad, you know what I mean? So I'm having to teach him about this person who's no longer here. That was like the biggest loss of his life, you know, and it was just such a weird, thing. And I was like, I need an outlet. Like I need to pull myself out of whatever I'm in, you know, and just kind of hit it head on.

CJ: 4:14

So in those two years, then what was the. What did it look like to essentially numb out, right, for two years until you started grieving? What did that avoidance look like?

Kellie: 4:25

Oh God. I, I honestly, like, I don't even remember. Like, I don't remember it. I was just in survival mode. I think, you know, from the time that his dad relapsed until one day I woke up and I was like, I just cannot feel like this anymore.

CJ: 4:39

Yeah. You

Kellie: 4:39

know?

CJ: 4:40

Yeah. Yeah. I had a moment like that. It was, I think it was like a year and a half, maybe two years after my wife died. And I was in the bath and it was super, it was nighttime kind of COVID was coming to an end in quotes and, and I had that same feeling where I was just like, I can't fucking do this. I can't wake up tomorrow and feel the same way. Something has to change. And I ended up signing up for a men's retreat a weekend with this guy that I knew, and he was finally opening up after COVID. And it was four days of like really fucking intense, basically therapy, but with like group work. And it, it, it was the catalyst to begin to change. It didn't like change things overnight, but it began to kind of like reframe grief, allow me to confront it in a new way. Cause. I mean, I was working on confronting my grief while my wife was going through cancer and then after she died, like I always wanted to hit it head on, but kind of looking back now, I was like, ah, I was really fucking like numbing out in different ways keeping myself busy and stuff like that. But when you had that realization, when you had that moment, what, what was the instinct? Like, where did life begin to open up? How did you confront your grief?

Kellie: 5:59

Yeah, I mean, I I've always written a lot. That's kind of my outlet creatively and just personally and I started therapy and that was a huge lifesaver, both individually. And with my son together, so we could, you know, talk through emotions and, you know, figure it out. I didn't want him to grow up to be a man who always was like, I'm not going to talk about how I feel. So that was really important to me. And I think that's helped us our relationship a lot. Uh, he's almost nine now. And, you know, I just was like, you know, when I'm like, I'm going to do the damn thing and I'm going to heal for him and have, you know, You know, him have a mom who's the best version of herself when she can be.

CJ: 6:38

Yeah, absolutely. Was that the first time you'd done therapy, then?

Kellie: 6:43

I had started it shortly after he his dad had died. And then I took a break for a little bit. So I was like, I don't want to talk about this anymore. And I just needed time. I was like, you know, I'm freaking sick of talking about him. Like, I need to just focus on me, you know, and I was just really angry. Okay. still. So I took a little bit off, but then, you know, I started again and I still do it every week.

CJ: 7:05

Yeah, it can be very helpful. And there's so many modalities that you can try and attack it from a different, a different lens, a different perspective. So, I mean, there are seven years in between now and when you started therapy. What is, what is that process of getting to, to where you are now?

Kellie: 7:24

I mean, I feel like sometimes, uh, I'm still like, what the heck? Like, why did all this happen? Like, what was the point? You know, like, what am I learning from this? You know, and I just think I learned that, you know, sometimes really crappy stuff happens to good people. And sometimes it seems like more than often it's always like really good people that things happen to, like double. Oh. But you know, I feel like probably the last year I've really like come into myself again and kind of like remembered who I was before. You know, I was a new, I was a new mom when everything had happened and you kind of lose yourself in, in being a parent for the first time and that kind of becomes your identity and I finally feel like I've like found myself again.

CJ: 8:05

Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. So it's been cool. That's really hard. And I think there, I've talked about it before, but there is definitely an identity loss when we lose when we have a significant loss in our life.

Ashley: 8:16

Yes.

CJ: 8:17

And you lost two pretty significant people. Back to back.

Ashley: 8:21

Yeah. And gained a new identity in a way. Correct. Yeah. It's like, it's a lot of shifts at once.

CJ: 8:29

Yeah. What was that process of rediscovering your identity and learning who you are?

Kellie: 8:35

I don't, I just, you know, it took a long time. It's kind of just like, you know, I was in such like a mode where I was like, okay, well I'm raising this kid by myself. Without my mom, like, a lot of my friends, like, did not have any children yet. I had him pretty young. I got married really young. I was 23. And that's kind of like not normal now. Whatever. But It was normal back then. It's crazy how that's shifted in the last, you know, 10 years. But, uh, Yeah, you know, I, I got back into, you know, fitness and that, that was a huge outlet for me going to the gym every day, like just getting into a routine where I'm not like laying in bed, like just rotting away, you know? So that was helpful for me.

CJ: 9:15

So I'm moving basically just moving. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, that, that's been, that's been so huge for me too. Something that I found out. And when I don't have that aspect in my life, everything else becomes pretty, a lot more challenging I should say. Yes. Agreed. So as you're discovering this new identity, you're writing this book, which now I would expect it adds on this new layer and then your son's getting older. I mean, nine years old now that's, there's like a couple of key transition points from zero to nine.

Ashley: 9:53

Yeah.

CJ: 9:54

What, what came up for you as you were writing this book, watching your son get older as you're writing it and then reflecting on your own grief. Confronting it and dealing with your mom and losing your husband.

Kellie: 10:07

I think the biggest thing for me is kind of seeing like how his little world has evolved. You know, when he was in kindergarten, you know, there was, I remember, I'll never forget it that, you know, all the kids were talking about like families and, you know, he had said, well, like, I don't have a dad. And they were like, what do you mean? Everybody has a dad. And he's like, Nope, I don't. You know what I mean? Just like very a matter of fact, because it's always been an open dialogue in, in, in home here but that was kind of like, okay, like kids, even if they have not experienced all this personally, I think it's so important for them to talk with their families about grief and death because they don't know what to do. Who close to them has, you know, and to have that empathy as a kid, I think it's really important to understand that everybody's family looks different and sometimes it's because somebody's not alive anymore. Yeah. I think, I think there's an age appropriate way to talk about death and grief no matter what age you are.

CJ: 11:00

Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah. I remember the first Mother's Day they had to do their Mother's Day projects and they're just like, uh, she's dead. She's dead, so.

Kellie: 11:11

Yeah.

CJ: 11:11

Yeah. And they had no idea what to do.

Kellie: 11:14

Yeah, it sucks. It's like, you know, I think it's people don't just don't think about it because they don't want to because they want to live in La La Land, but like, guess what? We don't.

CJ: 11:22

Exactly.

Ashley: 11:23

But also, I mean, I feel like there's a lot of other reasons why someone might not have a mom or a dad. So in a way. Yeah. Schools kind of need to not do things like that. Or, you know, like it's like honor your parent or your mother figure, like a person in your life that, you know, like has meant something to you or like, there's just a reframing that needs to happen. Agreed.

CJ: 11:47

Yeah, I agree with that too. I know the family structure is vastly different and it has been for. It has been

Ashley: 11:53

for so long. Yeah,

CJ: 11:54

so long. Yeah, I don't understand why we're still kind of stuck in this mode of, of, uh, mom, dad, two kids, two and a half kids, like cookie cutter. It's

Kellie: 12:04

just like, no, it's not how it is anymore.

CJ: 12:06

Yeah, exactly. So as you're going through this, I think it's interesting to, to hear about what kind of support structure you had, like, where did you turn for support? And did you have to go and find it or did it come to you or like it was already built?

Kellie: 12:24

Yeah, I mean, I have a dad and I have a sister and they were, you know, helped me so much. You know, my dad had, was like kind of half retired so he moved, he moved in with me. And he, he worked in New York, so he would stay with me on the weekends. So I'd kind of get some help from him, and then my sister lived with me for a while, too until she had moved in with her well, now husband, but you know, they, they hit it head on with me. I kept things secret for a very long time when his dad relapsed, because it was hell on earth and I tried to just protect everyone, basically, but, uh, now looking back at it, I wish I asked for help You know, but it's just such a weird situation to be in. And it's like, you can't really describe it unless you've lived it.

Ashley: 13:08

Right.

Kellie: 13:08

Yeah. But yeah, I have great family. And, you know, my dad's fully retired now. My son gets to, you know, he goes and spends the summer with him down where he retired and they have their little guy bonding time. So that's really important to me. Yeah. Oh,

Ashley: 13:22

that's amazing. Yeah, that's awesome.

CJ: 13:24

What was the thought process between what was the thought process trying to. Kind of keep it under wraps about the relapse and then when he, when he OD'd, like, what was your, or is your feelings around that? And has it evolved? Because I know that could be like a potentially a sensitive thing to have to describe to people.

Kellie: 13:49

Now I am not ashamed. You know, I think when. When he had passed away, it was, uh, 2016, and I think fentanyl was really starting to, like, get crazy then. I mean, it's even worse now. But, you know, it's just, it was a very abusive situation because of the drugs. So, I just tried to keep things secret, you know what I mean? It's like, you're ashamed. You're like, well, people, you know, why didn't you leave? Well, it's, it's very hard to explain. Like, you're very, you know, scared. scared and manipulated and you know, it's just kind of like you're just trying to survive and I had a baby

Ashley: 14:24

at

Kellie: 14:24

home, you know, and I, you know, now that it's been many years, like, you know, I wish he could have gotten the help. I wish he wanted the help. He was a very intelligent man. You know, he was a social worker. He was a drug and alcohol counselor. And you know, addiction does not discriminate. And if that's not proof of it, I don't know what else

CJ: 14:44

is. How did you carry that? Like. the shame and the fear of his surrounding his death and the relationship and all that. Like, how did you transmit that? How did you change the narrative around that for yourself?

Kellie: 14:58

I don't, you know, I think I just really had to find myself again. I think I was just, you know, so drained from, you know, having to just keep everything on my shoulders and kind of just like, you know, Make things work. And it's just, you know, it's been a long time and I understand now, like he was just very sick, you know? Yeah. And it wasn't, you know, nobody goes into a marriage thinking like, I'm gonna do this to my spouse, and, you know. Exactly. You know, you don't, you don't, I mean, you get very, I was angry for a really long time, but you know, honestly, I think within the last year or so, I've kind of just like been like, okay, like he was sick. Like, I'm pissed, but I get it, you know? Yeah,

CJ: 15:34

yeah. For sure. And I think it needs to be said again, too, of like, physically or emotionally abusive relationships. Like, you don't just leave, it's like most people don't get out. There is a reason they are so, so difficult to get out of that situation. And yeah, it's very frustrating to hear people like, well, just leave, just leave, just leave. You can't. It's not that easy. Or people would not be in these situations, right? Like there wouldn't be like systems set up to try to help men and women who are in these situations.

Kellie: 16:06

Yeah, I think there's statistics that saying I think people try to leave at least seven times before they actually do. Holy

CJ: 16:11

shit.

Kellie: 16:12

Yeah, it's wild. I mean, it's like I really just tried to, you know, I try to keep a lot private for my son's privacy. And you know, also for his, his dad's family's privacy. You know, I, I never want to bash him to him. His, to our son because you know, he was sick and it's like, it's just, it's taken a long time for me to get into that mind frame.

CJ: 16:33

Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine.

Ashley: 16:35

It's like, you're not necessarily, it's seen as some, a choice that you make in society right now. It's versus an illness and maybe, maybe the tides have turned since 2016 a little bit in that regard but it's still, you know, It's kind of like when you talk about grief and like breaking your leg, like, you know, work is like, okay, we get it. You broke your leg. You don't you can't come to work or, you know, you can't drive your car. But like, when you're grieving, like, they're like, well, there's nothing wrong with you. And you're like, Oh, yeah, there kind of is like two weeks. You'll be all right. Whereas, you know, you know, drugs and alcohol and addiction is just, you know, It's just, I mean, I like to, I like to hope that it's kind of changing the narrative is changing, but it's, it's like slower, slower, you know, it's not like, oh, no, he got cancer. You're like, okay, well, it's still an illness, right? That they're battling, but. In the wake of that, they, they do bring other people down with them and so to speak, maybe that's a bad turn of phrase, but it, you know, it does impact other people you, your son, your family, his family. Yeah, it's definitely not talked

Kellie: 17:46

about a lot like the other side. You know what I mean of like the family who's around them because it destroys your entire family, uh, no matter who it is, whether it's your parents or, you know, your children or your spouse. It's just, I think people are really, uh, uninformed about addiction and I think people need to wake up because it's a huge. Saying that, you know, a lot of people are hiding because they're scared and they're embarrassed and there's nothing to be embarrassed about.

CJ: 18:13

And then like, I don't, it feels like, I mean, anecdotally, it feels like most people are affected by addiction. Like, it seems like most people have a close ish family member that is going through addiction. I mean, it's something that I was exposed to, like, from the time I was born and until then. You know, when, when the family members passed away, but like, it is, it is very pervasive, very pervasive.

Kellie: 18:39

Yeah. It's scary. I mean, it's just, it's just, you know, and then you try to inform your kid as much as you can and you want to scare them, but you don't want to like, you know, be a helicopter parent and be like, don't ever do anything in your life. So it's just, especially when you're genetically predisposed to addiction, you know what I mean? It's scary thought as, you know, even being a single mother, it's like, Oh God, like how do I even begin to tackle that one, you know?

CJ: 19:05

Right. How do you navigate that with your son?

Kellie: 19:08

Yeah. So, you know, we haven't, you know, he knows that drugs are bad, but he's still at that age where it's like, you're at the cusp where you're like, Oh God, like, I don't know if I could start talking about like the in depth things of this yet. But I, I have been working with a couple organizations recently, you know, with my book coming out that are for drug prevention and they have really great programs for kids to explain it. And you know, even like, you know, in teens as you know, different age groups, like they have Friday night, like hangouts, so just to kind of get kids like off the street and like not doing crazy stuff, but you know, there, there is programs and I, and I love that there is, but you really have to look for them.

CJ: 19:44

Yeah. I don't, I don't think they'd be that easy to find. I didn't even know that that existed where they have programs just to help kids navigate like what drugs are and all that stuff.

Kellie: 19:54

Yeah, it's prevention. And then, you know, just like a hangout, like they just do fun stuff. They'll watch movies, but then they do, you know, talk about like the dangers of, you know, anything being laced with fentanyl. I mean, I live in Connecticut and actually there was a news story today of a legal smoke shop. He was selling fentanyl laced weed. No way. Yeah. That's a wild, yeah. It's like, yeah, it's legal, it's legal here, but that's not legal. Like you can't do that.

Ashley: 20:20

Yeah. You know, literally it's, it's in Buffalo it's crazy too. Like last month the county, Erie County executive was like, he treated like there was four overdoses, like in one morning. And it's, you know, they get, there's a bad. Uh, you know, batch out there and it just, it wreaks havoc. It's just terrible.

Kellie: 20:40

Yeah. And you know, it's because it's pot is legal here, you know, you think that people are going safely and buying it somewhere and it's like, okay, well, can't even trust that. So it's just so scary. I mean, it's

CJ: 20:51

very scary.

Kellie: 20:52

It's such a weird thing. I mean, you know, when, when I was a kid, it's like, that wasn't talked about. I mean, our parents were like, dude, don't sniff glue, you know, it

Ashley: 21:02

wasn't like this.

CJ: 21:04

Yeah, yeah, seriously. Also, I

Ashley: 21:05

don't think it was, I don't think like, the fentanyl crisis, I don't know, like, I just, I know my parents were like, don't do drugs, cause, you know, drugs aren't good for you, but like, there was never this like, scare that like, no, it's cause there's fentanyl in it and it's gonna like instantly kill you. Literally, I mean, I think it

Kellie: 21:23

takes like a little grain of, it looks like a grain of salt, I think, can kill you, you know, and it's, Especially if you are, you know, I don't really think heroin exists anymore. I think it's kind of just all fentanyl. But you know, when he had overdosed, he obviously was seeking heroin and he shot a whole bag and it was all fentanyl. Oh my God. He was killed

Ashley: 21:41

instantly. I

Kellie: 21:41

mean, he was, he was found in his car. And you know, somebody called 9 1 1 obviously. And, you know, he got brought to the hospital and he was on life support for six days.

Ashley: 21:52

Oh my gosh.

Kellie: 21:53

And was completely, you know, brain dead. So I took him off life support the day after Christmas.

CJ: 22:00

No way.

Kellie: 22:02

Yeah. So it's definitely, you know, I, it's, it's not a glamorous thing. I wouldn't, I would really advocate that people really research fentanyl and the, the awareness needs to be kind of more out there than it is.

CJ: 22:15

Yeah. What, what was going through your head those six days and then going through Christmas?

Kellie: 22:24

It was just torture. I was just like, you know, when you're sitting in a hospital, like, you know, I'm sure you've sat, you know, it's just like, God, it's just the time just doesn't, it just doesn't move. You know what I mean? And then you're sitting there having to face all of these decisions. And then you hear, you know, blah, blah, blah from everybody else. And you're like, okay, but like, I have to make the decision because legally I'm married. to the person, you know what I mean? So it's like, you know, people are hounding you. Well, you should do this and you should do that. And then you have the people coming in the hospital being like, well, a miracle could happen. And I'm like, are you looking at the scans? Cause I am, you know, like I tried to just be very realistic and kind of just, I think, remove my emotions from it and kind of be scientific about it. I think that's what I did with my mom too. And she had died. That's how I coped

CJ: 23:09

in what ways scientific and what ways with your mom.

Kellie: 23:13

You know, just based off, she was sick for a really long time. She had cancer for about eight years. And you know how it is, if you have a retreatment at the end, and towards the end, it's kind of just like, can you just like leave her, let her go? Yeah. You know?

CJ: 23:25

That is one of the biggest mind fucks, is when you're watching somebody die in hospice, is like, you know they're, they're just not there anymore. They're literally just a body that's, you know, Still barely breathing and not wanting them to go, but also wanting them to go. Exactly. And then, like, when they finally take their last breath, there is that sense of relief followed by, what the fuck just happened? But like, there was a huge sense of relief when my wife took her last breath and it was the weirdest. possible thing to have that happen, but it's just like, okay, well, she's finally not in pain anymore. There's no more going for scans. There's no more chemo. There's no more this. There's no more of that. Like she was in so much pain. There's no way. I remember you were talking about fentanyl. We had, she had to have the fentanyl patches. And I remember freaking, I couldn't put them on. I was so scared. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm sure they make it so it's not that easy to like get it on your hands. But I was like freaking out. And then my sister was trying to do it and then we like dropped it and then the dog like came over and was like sniffing it. And I was just like, no, no. And I was like so scared the whole time, just completely panicked. I like had the craziest thoughts going through my head. But but yeah, that was, that was our. First night of hospice that experience with the fennel patches.

Kellie: 24:50

Yeah. I mean, I feel like sometimes it's like you look back at those thing and you just have to laugh about certain things because you're like, how screwed up was that? Like, that was weird. You know what I mean? Like my sister and I will sometimes be like, remember when mom died? Like, what the fuck was that? You know,

CJ: 25:04

it is. It is a really fucking weird thing. But we're just like we had to shove pills in her mouth and like help her swallow and then like crush them up.

Kellie: 25:14

It's like, this isn't human anymore, you know what I mean? It's like, you want to give them some dignity and just be like, you know what? Like, now you know when it's time and it's time, you know?

CJ: 25:25

Yeah, we, we interviewed a woman who had, uh, I believe her husband and her dad Did the medical assisted death. Yeah. And I mean there's, there's definitely like hardship with that. But it was, it was pretty wild to hear like, okay, I'm at the end and I'm going to choose to, to go now. Exactly. And it just feels so much more humane. I mean we do that with animals. Thank you. We treat them so humane.

Kellie: 25:50

Yeah. You know. Why can't people have that? You know what I mean? I mean, it's. I'm all for that. I mean, my state does not have that, but I, but I think when you see someone suffer for so long, you're like, how could you not want that? At least have an option.

CJ: 26:04

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure why I've never looked into why we don't really have it in the States, but

Kellie: 26:10

yeah, I think it's legal in like Washington. I think there's just one or two states.

Ashley: 26:14

Yeah. I'm a full proponent and that will be my choice of if I ever had a terminal illness. Absolutely. Yeah. Like having everyone around me, but like just slowly fucking die. It sounds like the worst fucking thing ever. It's torture.

Kellie: 26:32

I mean, people don't think about it. Like the people around people, like, yeah, I mean, not trying to sound selfish, but like this is happening to you, to you too, especially if it's your spouse or a parent, like those are huge. Yeah, I mean, it's just, and it changes your life completely. It's like, no matter if you were close to them or not, it's still like life before them and then

Ashley: 26:52

life after them.

CJ: 26:53

Yeah, that's right.

Ashley: 26:54

I don't know if it's because I witnessed that as like a nine year old, but I definitely definitely would not want that. No,

Kellie: 27:04

the trauma behind it is just like, I can't, I can't,

CJ: 27:08

it is, it is very, and it's not, it's not always a good experience. Some people have had really beautiful experiences. Some people have had really hard experiences in hospice. It just depends on where you go, the nurses, how they are feeling,

Kellie: 27:23

how everything

CJ: 27:23

goes. You just never know.

Kellie: 27:25

Yeah. We had one, one nurse asked my sister and I like, what are you, Kevorkian?

Ashley: 27:29

What?

Kellie: 27:30

Cause we were like, can't you just give her something? Cause my mom was on you know, morphine for years. And it wasn't, it wasn't doing anything for her, you know? We were in the hospital for like a week and we were like, She's uncomfortable, like, can't you just like, figure it out? She's like, what are you, Kevorkian? As I'm sitting there like, fat and pregnant. I'm like, really? I'm like, yeah. Oh my god. Like, we wanted her to die? No, we just want her to like, be at peace. Like, people don't It's so strange, the stuff that people say.

CJ: 27:58

Holy shit, that's fucked up.

Kellie: 28:00

Yeah, you're right.

CJ: 28:02

I'm still stuck on this, like, your husband, like, having to take him off life support the day after Christmas. Was that your first Christmas with your son?

Kellie: 28:10

He, uh, or second, it was, it was a second. Yeah.

CJ: 28:13

Okay. Yeah. I mean, still. So what did Christmas look like for you that year?

Kellie: 28:18

It was very somber. You know, I had stayed home. My sister was already like living with me cause she kind of just moved in right after he overdosed cause she was like, well, what am I going to do? Like leave her alone. You know what I mean? Like I didn't want to sleep, uh, in my bed alone. I just like need in someone there, you know? Yeah. Cool. And it was just a very somber, you know, we, we woke up, we opened presents and then I went to the hospital all day and I sat there, you know, and then, then, you know, I had talked to the doctors like, all right, like, I think this is it, like, can we just get this ball rolling? Like, I'm not carrying this on to do the new year. Like he's gone. He's gone. Like you said, it was like just a body. Yeah. And I just couldn't do it anymore. I was just like, this is agony for everybody involved. You know what I mean? He's sitting there like barely alive on life support was dying on life support.

CJ: 29:07

Holy shit.

Kellie: 29:08

Yeah, like it wasn't, like it was just done. You know what I mean? So I was just like made the executive decision and people were very mad about it, but I was like, you know what? At the end of the day, like I was just thinking of my son, like this can't be what our Christmas memory is going to be every year. You know,

CJ: 29:23

right. Family was mad.

Kellie: 29:26

His side, I think, you know, I get it as a parent, you want to make decisions for your child. But once your child is an adult, and if they're married, that's not your choice anymore.

Ashley: 29:35

Right?

Kellie: 29:36

You know, I did everything that I could, it wasn't my job to save somebody else. Yeah, I, I didn't choose, you know, to pick it up again. I get it. It's addiction, but, uh, it's just, you know, a very slippery slope. Like I get it as a mom. I cannot, I don't, I don't want to imagine that, but I think that, you know, when you're, when you're an adult and that's, you know, your kid's married, it's kind of, you know, you have to kind of step back a little bit.

CJ: 30:00

How do you, or what is your relationship to. your husband now that he's past and in terms of keeping him in memory for your son, like, what does that feel like for you now that that relationship, like my relationship with my wife has evolved. It was very much like I was trying, I acted like she was still here, but knowing she was dead, which created a lot of frustration and anger, which is like, what the fuck? Where are you? Like, I need help. Like, what is going on? And it's kind of more evolved now of just, you know, I think more of a peaceful, like, feeling connected to her and knowing that there is some form of connection still there and it's finally transformed. So it's easier to, to kind of keep those memories alive with the kids. What does that look like for you and for your son?

Kellie: 30:57

Because he died when my son was so young, he doesn't remember him. I mean, sometimes he'll, like, come out and say something and be like, Oh, do you remember, like, when my dad did this? And I'm like, how do you even remember that? Like, you were, like, nine, ten months old. But yeah, I mean, he doesn't he doesn't really ask about it. If he does, I obviously, I'll tell him, you know, he'll ask. Like, what did he do when he was this age and this and that? But it's very seldom he asks about him.

CJ: 31:23

Oh, wow. Okay.

Kellie: 31:24

Yeah.

Ashley: 31:24

And what about for you in terms of remembering him?

Kellie: 31:28

I mean, it's just such a weird way that he died. It's just, you know, like I had said, I feel like he kind of died when he relapsed. And there was kind of no more relationship there anymore. You know, like the love of his life was heroin.

Ashley: 31:41

Right.

Kellie: 31:42

That's what it was. You know what I mean? So I kind of just, I felt like a single mom already and it's just what it, what it was, you know, unfortunately, but you know, I just, wherever he is, I hope he's at peace and he's not hurting anymore. And you know, he's, uh, you know, just okay. Yeah. Yeah.

CJ: 32:02

Appreciate that. That is a super fucking powerful statement. The love of his life was heroin. That's kind of says it all. Yeah.

Kellie: 32:11

Yeah.

CJ: 32:13

So what does life look like for you now?

Kellie: 32:15

I mean, this book has kind of like, blown up a tiny bit. It's, you know, I've had, I've had a lot of adults say to me like, wow, like I really needed this when I was a kid. You know what I mean? And even if it's not even a parent loss, you know, grandparents, whatever, like it's just, it's not talked about. And I think it's so important to talk about it. You know, I just it's I don't know. Like I, I remember growing up, like it wasn't really talked about a lot. And I think I experienced my first death when I was like 12 with my, with a grandparent and you're like, Whoa, like, this is weird. Like, you don't, you don't know the feeling cause it's not really talked about. But it's been really cool. You know, I'm just really trying to, you know, build a legacy for my son. And I'm just trying to motivate myself to just be a powerhouse type of woman for him. So he has, you know, when he grows up, so he can be like, you know, my mom did this and she did it alone, you know, when I was. told I couldn't do it alone.

CJ: 33:10

That's awesome. What does it feel like to have that recognition for the book, which is really a recognition of your grief?

Kellie: 33:17

It's been amazing. It's like, I feel like it's really kind of amplified healing for me. I feel like it's brought me a lot closer to just human connection. You know, yesterday I was out to dinner and I had like a little purse on that I never wear. And I was in the bathroom washing my hands and the lady next to me was to me was like, Oh my God, like, you just made me think of my sister. She just died.

Ashley: 33:37

I was

Kellie: 33:38

like, I'm sorry. You know, and she's like, no, it's good. She's like, I saw your person. It just like, it made me think of her. And I was like, you know, like you have moments with people and you don't realize like everybody is living through such shit, you know, sometimes and you just don't know until unless someone opens their mouth. And I, I think I've had a lot of those interactions lately and it's really been beautiful to just be a human and connect to people you don't even know.

CJ: 34:03

Yeah. What do you think is bringing about those experiences, those moments? What's been the shift?

Kellie: 34:09

I don't, it's just, I think, I think something in me just feels more like open to talk about things now. Where I really didn't, didn't for a really long time because of shame or whatever, just trying to survive and being like, all right, well, I think like, you know, if I tell my story to people, it's kind of just my life and they're like, Whoa, like, what do you mean? I'm just like, Oh, sorry. I forgot. That's like intense.

CJ: 34:32

I do that all the time. And like, I like I'll catch people's eyes and I'm like, Oh, right. That's probably more intense for you. I'm like, Listen, let's talk about it a hundred times a day. Like, it's really not a big deal for me. But yes, I think sometimes I forget that it's. Other people aren't as candid or talk about death or experience it as much as maybe we have, so yeah, that's funny. Yeah,

Kellie: 34:57

it's been like, it's funny, because like you said, the eyes are like, you know, you're like, oh, sorry. You know?

CJ: 35:04

Yeah, I tend to laugh at it now, though.

Kellie: 35:06

Same. I'm like,

Ashley: 35:07

it's all right. Don't worry about

CJ: 35:08

it. Yeah, exactly.

Ashley: 35:12

I think you, you also like become open to it or like you just, I kind of, when we're in a good place about these things and obviously good is like subjective considering like what, what we're in a good place about. But I think you kind of just, I don't know. I feel like there's like almost like a vibe someone gives off that you just like you, you feel approachable. You feel like, oh, you know, she felt like she could say something to you versus maybe when we're like, you know, in the thick of it or not totally healed from it. We probably don't have that kind of like. I don't know, just aura about

Kellie: 35:50

ourselves. Exactly. It's a different energy. I feel like you can tell when someone's so closed off. And I feel like, you know, I'm a big read on energies. Like I can always feel people's things and it sucks sometimes because you're like, woof, you know what I mean? But I've learned, that's like a big thing I've been learning. I think the last couple of years is trying to like, keep my own peace and like, kind of. Yeah. You know, put out good energy, but try to not

Ashley: 36:14

receive it if it's bad. I feel like I'm like super in tune to people's energies and like, if I don't feel the vibe, I am like, okay, I didn't do anything wrong, right? Okay, I just gotta leave this person alone. Yeah, exactly. And it took me a while to get to that point too.

Kellie: 36:33

Yeah, because you don't really talk about that when you're growing up, but my son is the same way. And like when the both of us are together, you can always tell we're just like, Oh, like when you walk into a grocery store, you're like, I can't even be here. It's just too much.

CJ: 36:46

Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah, that's why, like, sometimes I'm just like, I need to get the fuck out of this environment. It's too much. Yeah. It's so overwhelming. I'm like, thank God

Kellie: 36:54

for Instacart, cause damn. Yeah. I'm like, I can't.

CJ: 36:57

That's all I do now. Instacart. It's the best. It's been a lifesaver.

Ashley: 37:01

Truly. I, I actually spend more when I go into the store. So I, I know that things are marked up, but I'm like, fuck it, man. I literally spend so much more money when I walk in that damn store. I'm like, Oh, miso sounds good. What can I do with miso? Like on sale today? Like, no, mate, you've never fucking cooked with me. So what the fuck is wrong with you?

CJ: 37:23

So without a doubt. So I wanted to talk a little bit about your mom, too. Is there anything that you have, any rituals, any songs, shows, symbols, signs, anything that you get that allows you to kind of. Connect with your mom or the memory of your mom, you know, depending on, on your beliefs and stuff.

Kellie: 37:49

Yeah. So shortly after she died, my sister and I went and talked to a medium. She was so spot on with like into the flower arrangements we had at my mom's service. Oh shit. It was friggin wild, but she had said, like, you know, my mom was like a ball of fire. She was a wild woman. Like she was covered in tattoos from neck to toe. Like she was just like a bad bitch. So, you know, she had said, you know, like I'm going to send them feathers, but not like ugly seagull feathers. Like I'm going to send them cool feathers. And I find, I find them in the weirdest spots. That's awesome. Like when I need her, like I'll look down and I'll just see one like buried in dirt, you know what I mean? Yeah. And like I was at work the other day, I work at a farm and out back I just found like a lone feather next to exactly what I needed.

Ashley: 38:41

That's awesome.

Kellie: 38:41

So I made that like the focal part of my book. On almost every page you can find a feather. Oh,

CJ: 38:46

that's fucking awesome. Oh, that's

Kellie: 38:48

amazing. Yeah.

CJ: 38:49

Yeah. That is so awesome. Yeah. I finally opened myself up to going to a medium after three years of hearing. Story after story after story and then a couple of people in my life just badgered me all the time Just go just go just go I was like fuck that And yeah, it was, it was pretty fucking wild. It kind of blew my mind, but now, like, I'll see those signs all the time.

Kellie: 39:12

Yeah, and it's crazy, there's a book, I forget who it's by, it's called Signs, and it goes into like how, there's, it's literally always right in front of us, you just have to look for it. And until you, until you open your mind, you're not going to see them, but when you do, you're like, okay, like I hear you. You know what I mean? Like, I'll be like, Oh mom, I put a song on if you're here and then she'll put on like a Tim McGraw song. Like that was her man. You know what I mean? Like,

CJ: 39:36

that's funny. Tim McGraw tattooed, bad ass woman.

Kellie: 39:39

That's so funny. Such an

CJ: 39:41

anomaly.

Kellie: 39:43

Yeah, she was wild.

CJ: 39:45

That's awesome. Do you have any stories about your mom that you'd like to share or your husband? Yeah, we like to ask people to share a couple of stories at the end.

Kellie: 39:55

Yeah, I mean, my mom was probably like, she never complained when she was sick. She, you know, had cancer on and off for eight years. She had, uh, a soft muscle tissue cancer. She had Lyoma and Sarcoma and it eventually at the end spread to her brain. And so we, uh, you know, towards the end, she was just misfiring and we would just laugh because she would say the craziest shit. And we'd be like, please don't like, just, what are you going to say? Like in the hospital, she'd be like, you don't know what you're doing. And they'd be like, uh,

CJ: 40:30

Oh my God.

Kellie: 40:32

To the very end, we were like, Mom, come on. Like, you know, like it's like she just never complained and she always just wanted to make us laugh. And that was like, we, we were her life, you know, my sister and I, and she was like, okay, like if I'm going to die, I'm going to be okay. I just want my kids to be okay. You know what I mean? But. She just made us laugh to, like, the very absolute end and she was just, you know, went through hell. I mean, she lost her hair so many freaking times, the chemo, the radiation, just, you know, the fibromyalgia from the chemo and just, she was always in pain but just never, ever complained.

Ashley: 41:05

Hmm.

Kellie: 41:06

And I, I don't know how, like, I can't imagine being that strong, you know?

CJ: 41:12

I know the same thing with my wife. I just, I can't understand how she endured. I didn't, I mean, I knew she was in pain, but she never showed it until the night before she went into hospice. It was the first time I ever saw her break. It was nuts. And she, at that point, she had cancer. And her liver, bowels, lungs, 17 tumors in her brain, all in her bones. I mean, it was everywhere. Yeah. Oh my God. Everywhere. I really, it was crazy. I really

Ashley: 41:40

wonder like what, I mean, I feel like we hear that a lot. Yeah. And I'm just like, how, how do cancer patients do it?

CJ: 41:49

I don't know. Yeah.

Ashley: 41:50

Like what is, I guess, I guess it might be a little bit of like the people in your family around you. Like, you know, you, you, you're trying to just. Just survive and yeah, as a parent too, you're kind of just like, I just have to do it, right? Yeah. Like I want to be here for my kids. I want to, you know, I want to watch, I want to meet my grandson. I want to, you know, insert milestone moments here, but yeah, it's just I don't know. They're a special breed. Which, back to your point about, I feel like, only good things, only shitty things happen to, like, the best people, and I swear to God, it's so fucking true. I'm like, there's some, like, there's some really shitty people in this world, like, like, I don't want to wish cancer upon them, but I kind of wish that they could have gotten it. Not like the three people who's, who we all lost. I'm a good person. I promise. Wait, maybe you

CJ: 42:45

shouldn't be a good person.

Ashley: 42:53

Oh gosh. Yeah.

CJ: 42:55

Yeah. I, there's something about. I, I still haven't like really formulated my thoughts on it yet, but watching Ariana go through everything, I feel like there's something about the human spirit, which we know there's like, biologically, we're going to do everything not to die. But I feel like I became convinced for a short while that when we know our time is coming to the end, there is something that happens in our psychology that allows us to endure And accept in ways that I think is incomprehensible to us. But then again, like I see, I've seen, I mean, I think I've watched eight people die and, and some people haven't been as graceful, but even in the end, they just, they are like, I don't, I don't know what it is. I don't know if there's like chemicals that get secreted. I don't know what the fuck it is, but I, I am partially convinced that there's something that happens in our spirit that prepares us for death. Yeah.

Kellie: 43:53

My mom, when we were in the hospital at the end, like the last week, she would not die with us there. Every time we were there, her stats were like, amazing. You know what I

Ashley: 44:05

mean?

Kellie: 44:05

And we'd be there for six hours and I'd go home to like take a nap because I was fat and pregnant. And you know, the nurse was like, you got to come back for stats or like tanking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, if you want to be here, I would get back there. They'd shoot back up.

CJ: 44:16

Damn.

Kellie: 44:17

She would not. She would not go. And she didn't. We went home one night and an hour later, the nurse was like, she's gone. I was literally brushing my teeth to go there. And they were at my sister called me and she was like, she, that bitch would not let us be here. She was like, you know, my kids aren't going to see it. They just aren't.

CJ: 44:36

Yeah. I know. I thought my, I thought that's how Ariana would be. Yeah. Yeah. And so we like left her alone for a while and then it was so weird to go back into the room and be like, Oh, is she dead or not? But I, she wanted all of us there.

Ashley: 44:47

Yeah, I believe that. I believe that a hundred percent. She was always so open, like not, I don't mean open and like, uh, she shared all the gory details, but I guess in a way she did. But she was just, she always involved everyone to a very respectable level. Level and, and within the diagnosis?

CJ: 45:06

Yeah, without a doubt.

Ashley: 45:07

I just felt bad that she died in 2020. She really wanted to die in 2021. She did? Yeah. Her last words

CJ: 45:14

are basically to get out of 2020 and, uh, Aw, that's all she wanted. I just wanna get

Ashley: 45:19

out alive. Yeah. Oh yeah.

CJ: 45:22

To get through the holidays too.'cause Christmas was her favorite time, so she died in September. I was like, Oh, right before the fucking holidays.

Kellie: 45:28

Of course.

CJ: 45:29

Yeah. Anyways, thank you for sharing a bit about your story. Uh, where can people find the book? Is it released? You said upcoming launch. Has it not released yet?

Kellie: 45:41

It is. It came out three weeks ago. So it's on amazon. com and bernsandnoble. com.

CJ: 45:46

What's the name?

Kellie: 45:47

It's called, it's called Here With You.

CJ: 45:49

Thank you for coming on. Everybody go buy the book and let every child read it and every adult read it. And, uh, I think the more conversations we can have around grief, the better equipped we'll be as a society. So, very appreciative of you sharing and also writing the book and being vulnerable and willing to put yourself out there to publish that.

Kellie: 46:08

Thank you. I appreciate it.

CJ: 46:14

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Day After. You can find this podcast and more at our website at www. thedayafter. com. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you could take a moment to leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.