Melanie's Path: Healing and Rediscovering Identity After Her Dad's Death, Part 2 | The Day After Ep. 21

In this episode of The Day After, co-hosts CJ and Ashley sit down with Melanie for the second part of an enlightening conversation about forgiveness, self-acceptance, and personal growth. Melanie delves into the challenging process of learning to forgive herself and others, highlighting the significance of grace and the need to accept support from those around us without immediately feeling the urge to reciprocate.

The discussion takes a heartfelt turn as Melanie shares her experiences with grief, particularly following the loss of her father and a dear friend's suicide. She opens up about the complex emotions of joy and guilt intertwined after such profound losses and the struggle to find new meaning and gratitude amidst grief. CJ and Ashley ponder how children process grief differently from adults, shedding light on the evolving nature of attachment styles and coping mechanisms through different stages of life.

The trio explores the concept of viewing acts of kindness without a transactional mindset, Melanie’s reflections on the human flaws of parents, and the transformative power of letting go of control. They also touch on the evolution of attachment styles before and after significant losses, emphasizing the balance between avoidance and anxiety in relationships.

CJ, Ashley, and Melanie also discuss the potential drawbacks of over-pathologizing personal experiences and the importance of using therapeutic tools wisely. Melanie’s candid recounting of her mental health struggles, including suicidal thoughts, underscores the critical role of a supportive network in overcoming dark times.

Listeners are offered invaluable insights into the paradox of control, the impact of nature versus nurture, and the long road to self-forgiveness and acceptance. Melanie’s journey is both a testament to resilience and a tribute to her father’s influence, offering hope and inspiration for anyone grappling with similar challenges.

Trigger Warning: This episode discusses topics related to suicide. Listener discretion is advised.

Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of the human experience and the profound lessons shared in this touching episode of The Day After.

Transcript

CJ: 0:00

Hey, welcome back to the day after before we continue our discussion with Melanie. I wanted to give you a heads up that the topic of suicide does come up and we talk a little bit about it. And if that is at all a trigger for you, please go ahead and skip this episode and we will see you next time. So I'm curious, I want to go back to the abandonment piece because I think it's pretty fundamental. Is this something that you've recognized in hindsight? Or did you recognize this in that moment?

Melanie: 0:42

I think that's something in hindsight because I didn't even really come to terms with my Like saying out loud that I have abandonment issues Until like a couple years ago.

CJ: 0:54

Oh, well, okay.

Melanie: 0:55

It's so

Ashley: 0:55

interesting. I literally read a thread today about adoption Really? And yeah, and like, children, like feeling like children having like abandonment and like feeling like just self worth and abandonment. And even in open adoption situations, the threat was like specifically about open adoptions, but you know, and all like some of the just things that you don't really think about that can come with that. Like you might not know your full medical history.

CJ: 1:20

We didn't know Arianna's right. So it's like, I have no idea what my kids. my kid's genetic makeup is going to be.

Melanie: 1:27

Yeah, it's so I was adopted when I was only eight months old. So I was a baby. But I know that there's, there is trauma that physically happens to the baby by being separated from its mother. And I always felt in my family, like I was a member of my family, I never felt like I was the adopted child in like that kind of thing. negative way that you sometimes hear. But it's interesting how even with all that in place and with not having any actual memories, that deep rooted feeling of losing something and something being ripped from you is very much like part of like, my makeup as a person. And so, yeah, feeling that my dad losing my dad.

CJ: 2:21

Yeah. We store it in our bodies, right? We store those traumas, no matter how old we are.

Ashley: 2:26

I don't like to compare, but I feel like that feels very similar to how I feel. I'll be it. My mom, my mom died. So obviously it's a different circumstance, but that, that resonates with me a lot.

CJ: 2:38

Yeah. When you began this process of Of grieving to where you are now, because it obviously seems like you've, you're in a much different place now, what, what did those, those years, I mean, it's only been a few years, right? You said 2019. Yeah. What is, what have these past five years looked like for you? What are some of the things that you have done to kind of help change your relationship to your grief, the abandonment, a divorce? Like there's so much that has been packed in so condensed. At such an, an age where you're like trying to discover your identity.

Melanie: 3:15

Yeah.

CJ: 3:15

What has life looked like for you? How have you gotten to where you are now?

Melanie: 3:19

I, I describe it to people as like, I'm going through like an expedited process of life experiences. Because the last five years, like you said, like divorce and then losing my dad and then I've moved and a pandemic, a pandemic, you know, the elephant in the room and also like not, we're not going to go down too much, but I like had a falling out with my mom because of the divorce because of like religious beliefs and things like that. And so I, a lot. I, I've spent a lot of time floundering and being a mess and trying to learn something from every single mess that happens. But there was definitely a deep depression that I fell into for a couple years that was very present with me like on a daily basis. And particularly The year and a half, two years after his death, I had struggled with like thoughts of suicide and kind of this, so, Only, I think, a year prior to that, I had lost a friend to suicide. Someone I wasn't particularly close with, but someone who I was almost in, like, a mentorship position to. And, so, I had already been in a place where I was kind of contemplating death, and not knowing how to handle really heavy emotions and really deep feelings. Deep wounds and having experienced kind of secondhand, their death was my mind would go to a place where I'm like, there's, there's an escape from the pain. There's a place where we can go where this, where you don't feel this deep, hollow feeling. And I owe it to some really great people for helping me get through that time. And in some ways, really just saving my life in a couple instances. My best friend, Lauren back home. And then Nicole was also someone who were just making sure that I was okay. And I was making it through. And with time, I started to go through that process of finding myself, uh, and spent some time disliking what I found. And then in the more recent year finding a place where I really appreciate and like the person that I'm becoming. And I think that whole journey has helped me with specifically the grief of losing my dad because I feel like I'm becoming somebody who I would be proud to, like, introduce him to.

CJ: 6:31

Oh, that's amazing.

Melanie: 6:32

And that I'm embodying the things that he believed in. My dad was a very generous and empathetic person and very compassionate. Something that I, I feel like I, I try, I try to hold on to from his example as much as I can. And I've, I used to be very, I still sometimes am, but I used to be very harsh on myself for emoting any kind of. feelings of weakness, using air quotes, because like there are certain feelings and emotions that we equate to being not strong and not being able to handle certain things. And becoming more in touch with my emotions and learning how to appreciate the jobs that they're doing and the roles that they play in my own existence and my own experience has, uh, has helped with that. But yeah, I, I feel like I'm tangenting and no, no, that's great.

CJ: 7:40

I definitely want to. Take a moment and just, you know, thank you for being so vulnerable. I know that stuff can be very hard to share. I resonate with so much of it and kind of the experience of my life. And I think the idea of confronting ourselves and finding those shadow parts that maybe we're not so happy with. It can be really challenging and I, I also believe that so much of life people go through never being willing to look at their shadow because we need to be the hero in our story. To be, we'll say mentally healthy for lack of a better term, it's like we have to be the hero or else like we're going to crumble. And when we find these parts of us that aren't great, that goes directly against like us being the protagonist. And that is something that I have been reconciling with very deeply over the past four years after losing my wife. I mean, it's something I was always working on, but I think. Being on my own and seeing how I show up for my kids or my friends or romantically and watching myself struggle from the outside, even though I know I'm doing my best, it becomes very hard to see my failures and to know that, like, okay, well, here's some character defects I need to, to change. So I'm curious because, you know, maybe selfishly, it is really hard for me to forgive myself. So I'm, I'm wondering how have you learned to forgive yourself? Have you forgiven yourself for kind of exposing those, those character defects? Yeah.

Melanie: 9:35

It's, it's something that I'm still currently working through. And it is something that it's, it's, it's, I'm realizing is in just small moments we experience where we can really practice that and it's really been daunting for me to forgive myself for the wake of things that I wish I could have done better or things that I wish I had handled better or I hadn't said something out of line or I hadn't lashed out at someone and I honestly really believe that the way that we feel both About ourselves and other people are so Incredibly linked that the more that The more I learn to forgive other people the more I forgive myself and the more I forgive myself the more I forgive other people and Maybe that's just how my brain works, but i'm very like if this is the rule of how we You live life and how we are, how we are human. Yeah. There's no exemptions. And also other people showing me grace. I feel in some moments where I don't, may not feel like I deserve it, is one of those like humbling things that makes me believe in forgiveness. When I, I can't find it in and of myself.

CJ: 11:22

That's amazing. I think that could be some of the, the hardest moments is when we feel we have failed so miserably and we're beating ourselves up and for someone to show us grace can be almost add to the pain.

Melanie: 11:39

Yeah. Cause it does feel like if, if we can't help ourselves and we can't help other people, it's like, but like we were talking about before, like we need other people. We need to. lean on, on other, on the shoulders of other people who are offering it. Like there are people who do really want to find out how we are doing and how they can be there for us. And I spent a lot of time pushing away people in only in the last few years have really accepted and just let them give to me. And not thought, okay, how can I like repay them or how can I like somehow undo this wonderful gift by like leveling the field, you know, it's so funny how like, that's where my mind would go. And all that does is really rob how beautiful their gesture is. But I think that comes from like a deep sense of like worth. And if you don't feel like you deserve that gift, you're gonna try and do something to make it. cancel out.

CJ: 12:53

That's right. Yeah, because it's, we're, we become unwilling to accept it because we don't feel we're, we're worth that gift. Yeah. And then we tend to want to just pour as much as we can into other people to find some be like, see there. Yeah, I am. I am worthwhile, but that lasts for like a minute and then you're like, fuck, I got to do that again. Yeah. To feel worth worthy again. Yeah, like I don't know if I'm a good

Melanie: 13:17

person. So I'm going to like exhaust all of my efforts to like prioritize everyone else to kind of like you said, build, build back up that idea of self in your head where you're the the hero or you're the good person. And that's also something that like, you know, in hindsight, looking at like growing up and like being raised by my parents, the more that I understand just how human and how flawed my parents are is, is how flawed and imperfect I am. And every, every single one of us is just, We're bound to fail multiple times where it's inevitable that we are going to fail, but being vulnerable in that failure is truly our saving grace.

CJ: 14:11

Damn. That's some fucking

Ashley: 14:13

wisdom. CJ's, CJ's gonna go marinate on all the wisdom you've shared with him today.

CJ: 14:18

Yeah. That's fucking awesome. I think that's It's like, I don't know where else

Ashley: 14:22

to go. That's exactly it. Let's just end right there. Like just being,

CJ: 14:26

being vulnerable in, in the mistakes is. Is like, I haven't heard it put in those terms before, but I think it's the crux of the beginning of us being willing to forgive ourselves because I think forgiving ourselves is that vulnerability and that willingness to say, I still love me for me, even in my mistakes. Yeah. And that, like, that's what's one of the biggest struggles for me, especially if somebody else is involved. If I've done something that, regardless their opinion on it, if they're like, it's not that big of a deal, but I view it as a big deal, or if they do think it's a big deal. It gets really hard to forgive myself when others, if I do something that just fucks me up, whatever. But if it's involving other people, it's fucking devastating. But yeah, you're right. I think that we have to show vulnerability in those moments to ourselves.

Melanie: 15:21

Yeah. And I think like what you said about it involving other people feeling so much more like maybe crippling is dramatic. But I feel like we. It feels that way because we can't control in the end how they feel. We can't control whether it, we can, we really make it up to them or not. It is up to them. And being vulnerable is about letting go of that control and kind of circling back to the, just the whole conversation of life in and of itself. Like we, we aren't in control of anything. And I think one of the more broad things that losing my dad and going through the last five years has taught me is that trying to fight for control is not where I should be putting my energy. And that it's in appreciating the love that's shown to me, showing love and grace where I can, and accepting that there will be times where both parties don't do a good job at it.

CJ: 16:39

Yeah, so I think you answered this. I'm gonna ask anyways. There's the idea of us swimming in our grief And then trying to find our way to shore so we can observe our grief We can hold our grief, but we're not stuck swimming in it. Mm hmm and Getting to shore metaphorically speaking is a little bit different for each person. So for me, it's it's finding the present moment and finding the love and the appreciation in the moment, because that's the antithesis of what the, what grief has presented in my life in unhealthy ways. So frustration, anger, not being able to accept that, like, this is my life now and wanting so desperately to have my old life back, even, you know, Even if it wasn't right, what for you is bringing you to shore in your life? And I, like I said, I think you've answered this, but I'm curious the perspective.

Melanie: 17:43

I think part of what has brought me to shore, whether I was conscious that I was swimming that way or not has been the ways that I've been able to find meaning past what I've lost, which feels me. Like, instead of trying, I don't know, I feel like I'm gonna botch what I'm trying to say, but like, in that moment where you lose somebody, and where I lost my dad, like, I felt like he existed up until this specific point, and if I wanted to hold on to him, I had to stay there, or I had to rewind and think back into the past, and I had to live in, in the past. to hold on to him and Life for better for worse does keep going after we lose the ones that we love and That current sweeps us away from that original point. And I think that I think that realizing how short life is has Given me a different idea of really what life is gratitude. And granted, it took wanting not to live for a little bit to get there. It wasn't like an immediate jump. But over time and with growth and with trying to be really purposeful about my healing I have come to really see the beauty of life in a bigger picture. I don't know. I think that's the best that I got.

CJ: 19:42

No, it's amazing. It resonates very deeply with me. And I think it, it brings up the idea of, like, when we have one of those first moments after a loss where you find yourself. laughing or smiling and just being like, conflicted of like, is this okay? Yeah. Right. Cause for, and for me specifically, it was like, well, I need to be in pain. She was in pain. And if I'm not in pain anymore, that's all I have left of her. And it takes a while. And work to realize it's like you, you can hold on to them through the beauty that you had with them. But for some reason, our brains are like, we need to be in pain, because it's the pain of the grief. And if I lose the pain that I no longer have the grief, but it's like now that grief is can be with you forever. What were you gonna say, Ashley?

Ashley: 20:39

I was just gonna ask if you felt that the kids had a similar experience with that.

CJ: 20:43

You know, it's been interesting. I don't think so. And

Ashley: 20:48

I don't think I did either.

CJ: 20:50

Yeah, it's been, it's been a wild thing to observe their grief because even, so like last Mother's Day, I just asked them like, how often do you guys think of mom? And they're like, I don't know, every once in a while. And I was like, that's fucking crazy because I think about her every single day. So I think there's such a different experience, right? Because life feels so big as a child. You know, so I wonder if it's like you get lost. I don't know. I mean, you could speak more to this, Ashley, but it's like, are you getting lost in the enormity of life and every day feeling like a fucking month compared to adults, it's like we're more than halfway through the year. And I feel like it just started like the timescale, it changes so much the older you get. So I wonder if that plays into it.

Ashley: 21:34

No, for me, I feel like, I think that kids are just. I don't know. I, I kind of, I, I have this like, almost like we didn't know that that's not how life was supposed to be, or I didn't Oh, interesting. Like it's just something that happens. The frame of reference is different. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Like, I didn't, I didn't go like, like I say now, like 20, uh. I can't do math.

CJ: 22:03

It's been 20 years.

Ashley: 22:04

Yeah. 31 minus 9. Yeah. A third of my, she was here for a third of my life. Let's, let's make it fucking easy. You know, like two thirds of my life, like she hasn't been here. And There isn't. So much of like, like my family has always made space for her. We celebrated her 50th birthday. We celebrate the 20th, 20th. We celebrate all of them. But like, we made a big deal out of like those ones. I, I just, I almost think that like, I didn't know that's not what happened in life, almost like I, you know, she was sick from like, honestly, as long as I can remember.

Melanie: 22:41

You didn't get to build the foundation of your whole life yet. Yeah, I built the foundation

Ashley: 22:47

of my whole life on a premise that like moms get sick and like parents get sick and parents die. I don't, I mean, like, that is like, probably like, a very, like, in retrospect view of it, but I just think that kids, I don't know, like, people always say kids are resilient, and I, I, I think it's true, honestly. I think that we just, we're like, this is a thing that happened, and if we have good quality parents, you know, they really help us go to, therapy and work through some of it. And inevitably some things don't, you know, you don't really work through all of it because how much are you saying or how much, you know, actually comes out that's like until, you know, it comes up later in life and then you got to work through it. But

Melanie: 23:31

I heard someone say like, emotions are particularly difficult because like, it's not necessarily the emotion that's hard, but it's all the meaning that we put to that emotion. And so when you're young, You only have so many things that you can assign that meaning to when you have that experience. You're like, okay, I have like this frame of reference, but like when you've lived a good portion of your life and then you experienced loss, you have like history of your own existence to attach onto that.

CJ: 24:00

Damn, that's great. Actually. Right. We're ascribing meaning. I mean, we We put judgments to everything. It's good, bad, but most things just are.

Ashley: 24:07

Yeah. I don't know. I think it's different when it's definitely different as experiencing kids, kids experiencing it versus experiencing it later in life. But even, even like Melanie's experience to my experience, which obviously you can't, I'm not saying you compare them to, but like,

Melanie: 24:26

but

Ashley: 24:26

like, it's just

Melanie: 24:26

both parents. Like, yeah.

Ashley: 24:29

Different, different phases of life you've gone through, you've gone through like a whole lifetime.

Melanie: 24:34

So, I don't know. And also just what you said about like the perspective of like, you've had more time on Earth without your mom. Well, for like CJ and I, we've, it's not that ratio. And so like, I don't know, one day when we're all 80, Yeah. It's gonna feel

Ashley: 24:52

a whole nother type of different.

CJ: 24:55

Yeah.

Ashley: 24:55

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

CJ: 24:57

That was the mindfuck for me is like, if I end up finding a partner and I'm with her for the last half of my life, I'm going to end up potentially being with her longer. Then I was with Ariana. Yeah, that's crazy. And I was with Ariana for 18 years. So like, it's such a mindfuck to be like, holy shit, like, I'm going to be going through a lot of life. I'll be a different part of life. So yeah, it's just all these weird things or being older than the person that you've lost. Right. So it's like, once you're as old as Aunt Nancy and you surpass that, or once you're as old as your dad, Melanie, like all these weird things that just come up and. And maybe we're not paying attention and then our brains are just like, Hey, guess what? This is fucking crazy. And it's like, Oh shit, all right, here's a new thing that I got to process and go through.

Ashley: 25:47

Yeah, I think, I think that's for me, it's that's, I'm on the start of that kind of being in a weird, and now I'm, uh, I'm going to be older than her come January, older than she ever was. And you know, I, I, I might be a mom. I can't, there's no crystal ball, but I might be a mom on earth longer than she was, you know, like, but I don't know. In experiencing death, I count myself lucky that it happened when it did honestly.

CJ: 26:17

Yeah. You've mentioned that before.

Ashley: 26:19

Like, which is, I mean, I don't really like saying that in the sense of like, you know, like, oh, I can't imagine it happening later, but I, and I know I would get through it, but. I don't know. I feel like not having the frame of reference of, like, my mom on, my mom on earth for 20 years versus nine years.

Melanie: 26:40

I have a question for you, Ashley. Do you feel like, because you had talked about how you kind of, you have a fear of, like, losing people, at least in relation to, like, having lost your mom. Do you I know that people have either like a really anxious attachment to things because they're afraid of losing it or they have like an avoidant where they're like this is going to go away so I don't want to get attached like have you experienced feelings of either one of those or both of those or both yeah

Ashley: 27:11

it depends it depends on the thing it depends on the thing genuinely probably more like avoidant with friends and Uh, like, a little bit more anxious in terms of, of Nate, but not. Not tons, probably, probably like still like in the middle. Because like your dogs,

Melanie: 27:34

you're like, Yeah, she's

Ashley: 27:36

not. No, well, because like so, I mean, I definitely need to look into like that, like like psychology versions of anxious attachment and not the fucking tick tock versions.

Melanie: 27:47

Yeah,

Ashley: 27:47

because when like, you know, a lot of like TikTok videos or things that I see in that stuff, like, I don't have like a lot. I have some like anxious attachment, like some of the characteristics, but I don't have a lot of like, what I would say are like the more severe things of anxious attachment, you know, like, I, I don't have like a fear of like people leaving me because I'm not worthy. I just have a fear of like literally they're going to get hit by a bus and be killed. Like if they, you know, like if, if I don't hear from Nate in a while and also he's in the military, so that doesn't fucking help. You know, I'm like, like, did something happen to him? So it's not like, Oh my God, I'm worried. He's going to leave me kind of thing. But it's still, I guess is like, Anxious attachment in a way.

Melanie: 28:33

And that's why I said, like, feelings of it. Because, like, people like to label, like, you're either this, you're either an anxious attachment, or you're an avoidant, and I think we've experienced, like, a lot of things. Yes.

Ashley: 28:44

I'm definitely a little bit of both. I think, I think, like, in I, I do have, like, great, I have great friendships. My best friend since high school, I've been friends with my best you know, since high school. And my coworkers, like I always have become, I'm always, I'm the type of person that like, I become very close friends with my coworkers and like, you know, they know a lot about me. I don't like have like a, I don't know, I don't cut that off kind of thing. But there is probably a little bit of a part of me that's like, I'm going to like, not get too close.

Melanie: 29:16

Oh, wow. So

Ashley: 29:17

that like, if you die, I'm not affected, but obviously I will be affected. You know what I mean? Like there's a little bit of like, there is still a little bit of like, I don't get like, I don't get that close. I guess I would say I have a feeling of that. I don't actually think that people perceive. I don't think that people realize I have that.

Melanie: 29:36

Yeah, that way. It's funny that you say that because I feel like I, I also have a bit of both sometimes where it's like, I want people close. I want to almost like, I want to keep an eye on them. Not in like a way that I think that they're like, we're going to do something, but like, I want to see them and have them in my sphere in my life. But if I have them too, too close, the loss is going to feel. So much greater and so it's like I can have you I describe it a lot of the times like I need to have you at like an arm's length and like with time sometimes I'll let people people either either I'll let them in or just like time does the thing and relationships build and they seep in. Yeah. But there is always kind of like that, like, I don't rush in and grab on to people. Or even, like, not even just people, like, just the emotion of feeling happy or feeling content or feeling like things are going well. I, I feel like that, that has been affected as well, where it's like, if things are, like, gonna go well, like, who knows? Like, tomorrow, Things might not go well, you know,

CJ: 30:48

fear that the, the shoe, the other shoe is going to drop all the time.

Melanie: 30:50

Yeah. The shoe dropping. Yeah.

Ashley: 30:52

Yeah. I feel like I get that in some, maybe not, maybe not as much, but I have always found it very interesting that people always tell me that I am very blunt and I don't actually feel that about myself in the sense that I don't like when I would describe someone as blunt, I would describe them as like saying. things like at the wrong time or like in the wrong tone or with no empathy. And I think people label me as blunt because I, I don't like sugarcoat things, I guess, but it's not. I don't sugarcoat things. I don't. Well, let's say I don't do it without empathy or I feel like I don't do it without empathy. And I, I had a friend who has like a lot of anxiety is very kind of open about it, but you know, he said to me, he's like, are you, are you just a very empathetic person? Or do you like, do you have anxiety? And I was like, Oh my God, you're like the first person that's told me I'm empathetic. But I feel like there's something in that, like, I really, I don't like gray, I don't like gray areas. Like, I just like to know how things are so that I can just prepare myself, which is probably a little bit of like a control element to in there. But like I, it's not, it's not. Yeah, but I mean, I guess, yes, it is. But it's not in the sense that I need everything to be like down to a T and it has to go this way. And if it doesn't go this way, the world is going to end. No, it's just like

CJ: 32:25

controlling the outcomes. Yeah. For the outcomes so you can feel some semblance of control to handle what's going to happen even though we really, yeah, we can prepare and prepare and prepare, but

Melanie: 32:38

we all want to feel ready and yeah, we all want to fit. No one enjoys feeling out of control, I don't think,

CJ: 32:47

no, but the more acceptance of our lack of control, the calmer and the more in control we feel. So it's, it's a paradox. That we have to hold in our head of like, we don't have control of our life. We can certainly try to influence things by the choices that we make. But then, you know, if you want to get real philosophical about it, it's like our genetic makeup is going to also kind of move us in certain directions and make us more prone to certain things or interested in certain things. It's like, I don't know that we can just. Wake up and choose to do anything that we want. I think we are a little bit more inclined to do things or act certain ways or, or go through things. And then you have the life experience, right? The nature and nurture that's going to influence that as well. But yeah, but yeah, so it's, it's interesting. I think, I think it's an interesting thing to kind of dive into of like, what are our attachments, what were they pre death pre loss and what are they after the facts I'm, I'm in, in a group for widows specifically a dating group. It's, it's almost like a support group and it's interesting to see some of the commonalities that we all have and it was been a, a bit reassuring, but my attachment style has morphed and been enhanced to a, to a different degree after post loss. So I think it's, it's something to, to take into consideration. But I think the alternative. If we go too far down that road, is we make everything pathological, and that can become dangerous as well. Instead of just being like, hey, it's fucking life sometimes, and it is what it is. Oh my god, that's my favorite thing.

Ashley: 34:47

I say that all the time. I say it is what it is all the time. It is. A lot. I think

CJ: 34:52

there's a balance, but we certainly don't want to make every thought, every action pathological. Yeah. Because sometimes it just, like, we reacted, we didn't react, we did this, we didn't do that. Let's let it go. Now, I'm speaking direct experience.

Ashley: 35:08

Yeah, I was like, that's why I need to get off social media because it's like, oh, you're anxious attachment, you have high cortisol, and I don't know what else is wrong with you today, but Because everybody's selling solutions,

CJ: 35:19

and sometimes there is no solution other than here's an awareness, but like, do we need a label to it? Maybe not. I mean I'm speaking for somebody who was like obsessed with therapy I actually had to stop because I got into this trap where every fucking thought became pathological and every week I'm like breaking down to insane degrees and then I was like, what am I doing? Like this is not okay It's a tool to go into and say here's a specific thing. I need to work on after that Get the fuck out and like live your life. Integrate. Oh, yes. You know,

Ashley: 35:52

if, uh, if you're with a therapist more than like X amount of time, they're the wrong therapist. Like, I feel

CJ: 36:00

like, you know,

Ashley: 36:01

like I, I, I remember, I think my aunt was telling me about a podcast that was talking about that. Like a therapist was literally saying that, like I, if like, I need to help you get the tools you need to like solve the problem at hand, like what you're experiencing. And yeah, I mean, I think that's a very interesting perspective, C. J. M.

CJ: 36:20

Especially coming from me, like, I think last year I had three therapists, different modalities, because I fucking love it. It's like, to me, the inner world is the most fascinating thing on planet Earth. But. But.

Ashley: 36:31

If I had three parentheses, I would go insane.

CJ: 36:34

But like,

Ashley: 36:35

it was so

CJ: 36:37

profound and amazing to have these experiences. But the problem is, like, This is the trap with, and specifically with grief. Grief never goes away. So you almost feel like, well, I have something to work on. It's grief and it's impacting all these different areas of my life where if it's like, okay, I have anxiety or I have, you know, some specific diagnosis, you're going in, you're working on it, you get the tools. And you get to a place where you're like, okay, I'm going to stop for a while. Maybe you go back. So I think that could be the trap, right? Where it's like grief is always persistent. So you feel like you always have something.

Melanie: 37:11

Yeah. Then you spend your whole existence living in your head here and not in your world before you. And then life passes you by and you're like, I'm the one who lived on. And I spent all of it thinking about stuff.

CJ: 37:25

Yes, yeah, without a doubt. So, I don't want to keep any longer, we have kept you a very long time, so Oh, it's

Melanie: 37:31

okay.

CJ: 37:32

Before we let you go, if you would like, we would love to hear maybe one of your favorite memories with your dad.

Melanie: 37:38

This is like one of my earlier childhood memories with my dad. So I'll share two. One is like, one is very lighthearted. One of my earlier childhood memories with my dad is we had a hardwood floor in our living room, and he would put a pillow down on the floor, and I would lay my head on it, and he would just shove, like push me and I just send me across the floor and we would fly and then we would laugh and go again, again, and then we'd run back and then do it over and over and over again. We never got tired of it. So that's probably one of my, my favorite memories as a little kid with him. And then the other one is one that is really special to me. It was when I was in high school and I was dealing with a lot of difficulties with my relationship with my mom. And I, I wanted to leave home. And so I was making arrangements to go and move in with a friend get some space from that. And I ended up spending the day with my mom. I went to the library because I'm like 16. I don't have a car like where am I gonna go and like I'm gonna walk to the library and just figure out my life from there. And so I'm in the library and I call my dad and I'm like dad like I don't want to be at home anymore and I and my I'm gonna go stay at like John's family's house and he's like okay well like don't like make a rush decision here like Why don't you just spend the day with me? He didn't talk, try and talk me out of it at all. He was just like, come spend the day with me. And I ended up spending the whole day with him, just running around doing errands and just getting to be with him. And at the end of it we had a talk and he's like, if you want to go stay with him, you can do that. Just know that making decisions like this is going to affect in a big way your relationship with your mom and I want you to know like what that's going to like that's going to change things very permanently or semi permanently with her and he encouraged me to come back and and talk to my mom and it was not a a particularly good conversation with her. But my dad has always been kind of a mild, more passive person. And in that conversation, he, I remember him stepping in and really, like, really standing up to my mom, who I honestly think he was a little afraid of her in his life, in his lifetime. But he, He ended up kind of intervening and being and really advocating for me and standing up for me and making me feel like there was someone in my corner who would make sure that things are going to be okay if even if they weren't going to be perfect. And I remember when we were in the home and I wasn't sure if he was lucid and with it, but I remember holding his hand and telling him like, Dad, remember like when you did this and I was in high school. That meant so much to me. And a lot of the times, like when they're out of it, they could cry or have spasms or whatever. And it has really nothing to do with what you're saying, but he ended up like crying in response to that. I don't, I'll never know if it was because he was absorbing what I was saying, but. That memory is really special to me.

CJ: 41:04

That's beautiful. Well, you certainly left us with so much to think about, so much wisdom. Could definitely talk for another hour. And we are super appreciative of you being willing to come on and be so vulnerable and share so much. Thank you guys. And to share your dad with us too. Yeah. Thank you so much for being on.

Melanie: 41:24

I appreciate you guys a lot. I love what you guys are doing and it was really awesome talking to you guys.

CJ: 41:37

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Day After. You can find this podcast and more at our website at www. thedayafter. com. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you could take a moment to leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.