Healing Through Adventure: Genna on Living Fully Despite Grief | The Day After Ep. 22

In this heart-rending episode of The Day After, our hosts Ashley Infantino and CJ Infantino welcome Genna to share her journey through grief, trauma, and healing. Genna opens up about the immense pressure and guilt she felt due to societal expectations and how grief has profoundly transformed her identity at a cellular level. She delves into her experiences with somatic therapies like EMDR, which have been pivotal in her emotional healing process.

Listeners will hear Genna's raw account of dealing with the sudden loss of her mother and the prolonged suffering of her father, both of whom passed within a few short years. Genna recounts the significant role her adventurous and supportive mother played in her life, and how she initially resisted but eventually embraced her mother’s spirit to live life to the fullest. With the support of her husband, Genna courageously undertook physical challenges she never thought possible, like a 60-mile hike in Glacier National Park.

Throughout the episode, Genna emphasizes the necessity of living fully despite grief, drawing inspiration from her mother’s adventurous spirit. She discusses navigating complex emotions related to anxiety, depression, and the guilt of not being able to help her parents more, despite her professional background as a paramedic. Her honest reflections on therapy, the importance of mental health investment, and overcoming personal limitations under her husband's encouragement provide both moving and practical insights.

We also explore Genna’s unique cultural and religious experiences, particularly how she managed to adhere to Jewish funeral customs while facing institutional pressures. The episode closes with Genna reflecting on memorable moments she shared with her parents, her ongoing healing journey, and a poignant reminder to listeners about the importance of emotional resilience and living a full life.

Join us for an episode filled with genuine conversations, therapeutic insights, and powerful memories that resonate deeply with anyone who has faced or is facing grief and loss.

Transcript

Genna: 0:13

34 years old. I lost my father when I was 28 and my mother when I was 31. Two completely different experiences. My parents were divorced as well. So it was a very different trauma for both sides. My father was, everyone has a day that sticks in their mind too and my day is March 23rd, which happens to be two days after my birthday. My father was diagnosed, sorry with stage four adenocarcinoma, which is esophageal cancer. On March 23rd, 2018, after being completely healthy, deemed healthy on his January physical. Wow. He died three months later. Holy crap. Four months later, three, yeah, June 18th, so Father's Day of 2018. In a way, it was very traumatizing to watch him go from this six foot, 180 pound man. He was very skinny, by the way, very tall and very skinny. So to be there watching him become a shell of who he was, he died at 80 pounds. Oh my God. Wow. And we can go into that more. So COVID had happened and everything had started finally opening back up. So I never got to celebrate my 30th birthday. So my 31st birthday was giant and full of life, you know? And so I remember looking at my mother during my birthday brunch and I knew something was off.

Ashley: 1:55

Yeah.

Genna: 1:57

I didn't know what, but I knew something was off and she kept telling Like I kept seeing her grab her chest. I'm like, Hmm, something's wrong. And so she was only 60 64, no, 66 years old. So, it just 66 years old, perfectly healthy, walks five, seven miles a day on no medications whatsoever. Just random, super random. On March 23rd, she, I found her. Dead on her bathroom floor.

Ashley: 2:34

Oh my god. Oh my gosh.

Genna: 2:35

She had been complaining about the chest pains and I knew something was wrong on my birthday and I was adamant about Going to a hospital and she Remember, I know y'all are New Yorkers, so I'm going to say this with love. She was a stubborn New York Jew. Okay? I, I'm a Jew, so I can say some funny things with the world the way that it is right now. Uh, but, she, my mother and father were stubborn New Yorkers, both from, my mom was from Brooklyn, my dad was from Flatbush, so it just, you can't tell a New Yorker what to do. I'm And you can't tell a New York woman what to do.

Ashley: 3:13

Yeah,

Genna: 3:14

that's fair. So, she was like, I'll go to the doctor if I don't feel any better. I made her take aspirin. I'm a former paramedic. I knew something was wrong in my life. I knew.

CJ: 3:24

Yeah.

Genna: 3:25

But I couldn't make my mother do anything she didn't want to do. And she was like, okay, well, I made a doctor's appointment for March 23rd at 8 a. m. It's right around the corner from your work. I'll come see you and bring you breakfast like right after my doctor's appointment. And so 8 a. m. rolled around. We had this like thing. We always message each other. Good morning. Hope you have a great day. It was like 6 o'clock in the morning. I was always at work by 6 a. m. and I never heard from her that morning. I was like, uh, whatever. It's weird. One off. But by 830 I didn't hear anything. 9 a. m. I didn't hear anything. By 10 a. m. I was starting to get really hungry and I was like, man, I really want breakfast. Like, and then by 11 a. m. I was like, okay, something's wrong. And I called her phone 172 times.

CJ: 4:16

Holy shit.

Genna: 4:18

Back to back to back to back to back to back. And I could not get in contact with her. Wow. My work was also around the corner from where she lives. So. I just walked out. I didn't say anything. I just was like, nope, I'm gone walking out. And that's when I had a key to replace, of course. That's when I found her. And the neighbor next to her heard my screams. Wow. It was like that carnal, Yeah. Scream.

CJ: 4:49

And you said you're a paramedic?

Genna: 4:51

Yeah.

CJ: 4:52

And the, the, I mean, you've seen shit, I would assume.

Genna: 4:56

I have seen a lot.

CJ: 4:59

The contrast, right? To having something so personal, hmm.

Genna: 5:05

I've seen plenty, yeah, plenty of dead bodies, plenty, I've brought people back to life, I've watched people take their last breath, plenty of times, but that was my first instinct, was that carnal scream, and then I started doing my full assessment, was, okay, let me check all of her pulses, like, like, I knew, like, there's no way. But I knew rigor had already set in, like I could tell, but I still had to do my whole assessment personally. And I remember just sitting down after I was like, I know that she's dead. I, in my head, I knew she was dead. And I sat down and I didn't want to touch her for fear of like the police being like, okay, this is a crime scene, but it's not a crime scene. So I just, I put my hand over her head. And I put my other, I covered her up because she was naked, by the way which is typical of my mother. She was always naked. Child of, she went to Woodstock, like, she was just a free, happy child. She, always naked. I covered her up with this giant fluffy blanket and I remember it because they took her away with it too. But I heard a knock on the door and I just was screaming and holding her and like the cop came in it was the cops that showed up first because obviously they just heard a scream.

Ashley: 6:35

Yeah.

Genna: 6:37

And they literally had to pull me off of her because they knew like I was just screaming and the cop he just pulled me off and he was like I know I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I'm so sorry but I have to let the paramedics come in.

CJ: 6:55

Yeah.

Genna: 6:56

My mom and I aren't best friends. And say that my dad and I weren't best friends, my dad's death was a blessing because of the pain that I watched him go through. Yeah. And my mom's death was so unexpected and so sudden and so random. So I say I'm an adult orphan now, just because, and like anytime I see people that have fractured relationships with their parents, it hurts my heart. Because

Ashley: 7:31

I

Genna: 7:33

don't, I don't know what that's like. Everyone says, Oh, you don't, you don't have childhood trauma. Everyone has some form of childhood trauma and my childhood trauma was my parents divorce. So I love my father very differently than I love my mother, but I wasn't there when my dad died. So that's a different type of grief that I had to settle with and I wasn't there when my mother died, but I was there to witness. everything. I didn't see my father's body get taken away. I didn't see my father's body in the casket. I didn't do any, like, it was so different from my mother because the image I had of her from her death, I needed something different. So I, I asked the funeral home to let me see her before they covered everything and they did. And so lots of therapy, let's just say that. Lots and lots and lots of therapy. And thank God for her.

CJ: 8:45

Yeah, this has been six years.

Genna: 8:50

So six years since my father and three since my mother.

CJ: 8:56

Three since your mother. Yeah. Right. So what are, when you think of her, what are the images that you have now? Have you been able to kind of rewire your brain to go to different images first?

Genna: 9:13

Yes, but every so often and more so than people. We'll tell you is that I still see it and during the most random times to I could be having the greatest day of my life and all of a sudden it's just a flash and it brings you to your knees.

CJ: 9:36

Next week Monday will be four years since I lost my wife and I was fortunate enough to have family kind of cover and then like we turned off the cameras in my house and they let me leave. When the coroners came but that image of her last breath. So I've watched I think eight people die but watching her die was just something else right and She's the only person that I ever saw like she her jaw did this like really not human Movement.

Genna: 10:15

No,

CJ: 10:16

you know what? I mean, and I can't for the life of me Ever get that image out of my mind ever. I just remember looking and being like, what the fuck was that? And then she was gone. But I have found that like some of the work that I've had to do over the years is not staying in the relationship to my wife where it's the sadness and the loss. And trying to shift it to the memories and the feelings being on the things that were beautiful and joyous. But there is just some reason that we get so trapped in those last moments and in all the pain. It's like our brains like, no, just feel it. fixate on that, because that's your new relationship, because it's the last thing that you had with them, as opposed to the years and years and years of, of joy that we had with, with our, our lost or our loved ones. And it's such a hard thing to make that shift. Have you experienced that same thing?

Genna: 11:25

Yeah. And my therapist will say, you know, everyone talks about the circle of grief. It's not a circle because. You go through it. In different stages number one and you go through it every single day. It's not just Okay. Well, you made it through your fifth stage of grief. Congratulations. Here's your certificate of completion

CJ: 11:54

Yeah,

Genna: 11:54

no I will bargain all the time. Like there are days where I'm having one of those, I'm like, please God, just let my mother like, call me like her phone. Like I turned her phone off. The number is gone. I have voicemails on my phone from her. So I have voicemails on my father from my father on my phone. So just so I can still hear that voice because I'm lucky enough to have that. So on days when I need them, they're there, but my therapist would. Say you don't get to choose how you complete your circle of grief because it's a circle and circles never end So yeah, you are in a continuous loop of your grief no matter what and some days you'll be better Some days you won't

CJ: 12:51

yeah

Genna: 12:51

like this year Was the third so the third year and then the sixth year for my father And I didn't cry and everyone's like my husband's looking at me and he's like Are you gonna cry today? Are you, like, do I need to get you some chocolate? Like, what do we need, like,

CJ: 13:10

like it's,

Genna: 13:10

and I'm like, I don't know. It's super weird, but on a random Tuesday in the middle of summer, I will have a complete breakdown doing nothing.

Ashley: 13:18

Yeah. Yeah.

Genna: 13:19

So, the whole ideation behind death days and death anniversaries, they're awful, yeah, but I found that they're easier to work through than the random Tuesday. Yeah. Yeah. In the grocery store when I hear the red hot chili peppers come on and I'm like, yeah, I could yeah You know and so

Ashley: 13:39

I think it's like the the death days you expect it like you're like Well, you you would expect that that would be the day that kind of takes you back and you can kind of control it so you feel just Whereas when it kind of comes on out of nowhere, it's just like what the fuck like why? because you know like some people have their rituals or don't have any rituals for that day and So I think it's kind of just like it's like the one you can control And you can't control the ones that come out of the blue. So it's a bit more No, it's a bit more alert like off putting in a way because you're like what the heck I'm, just like listening to a song. Why am I crying?

CJ: 14:19

Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: 14:21

I kind of have learned to just like, I'm just like, I just cried out and then I'm like, all right, now I'm done. Like, like there's no shame in crying, you know?

Genna: 14:31

No, I can say it's like, I've seen my husband cry two times in the 10 years that I've known him. And it was the day that we put my 16 year old dog down. That's

Ashley: 14:42

literally saying, not to laugh at that, but like literally Nate never cries and he was a fucking puddle. He'll tell you that. He'll say that himself. He's like, I was a puddle. I couldn't even, I couldn't even like, he's like, I'm sobbing like a child. I was like, cause it's fucking sad, like you're a dog is like, and you have to do it. Like, Oh.

Genna: 15:04

Yes, and the day that we viewed my mom's body before they closed the casket.

CJ: 15:12

They

Genna: 15:12

had a, my mom and my husband had a very loving relationship. And it was good to see that because I don't know that he saw that kind of love from his mother and his childhood. Yeah. He'll deny that, but that's okay. But that's my whole thing is that he got a lot of love, like a love bombs from my mother all the time. Oh, here's a gift. Here's this, here's that here. You need a hug. You need this, you need that you need. And that's just my mother in general. And so I think. To see that relationship gone, and he wasn't there as well, and he was, he was an over the road truck driver when this happened, so I didn't celebrate my birthday with him. He wasn't there. He was 18 hours away when I had to call him and say, uh, my mom's dead. And

CJ: 16:10

he was

Genna: 16:11

like, oh no, shut up. What are you talking about? And I'm like, my mom is dead. I just found her body, Andrew. And he was like, I have to go home. Like, I'm coming home. It's gonna take me 18 hours, but I'm coming home. So, those are the two days that I've been. So, you don't expect to see, like, this man just break down. And so, that also is just really, you know, hard to witness.

CJ: 16:46

Yeah.

Genna: 16:47

I wish men showed their emotions more or talked about them a little bit more. But

Ashley: 16:54

yeah, my soon to be husband's also in the military. So

Genna: 16:59

that's a former military, former law enforcement. So yeah, very like he saw a lot of the same things that I saw as a paramedic in the same heat in the same city. So

Ashley: 17:11

they're like conditioned. I mean, they're they're like conditioned not to. Cause of what they do, obviously. So it's a very hard thing to like, unlearn.

CJ: 17:20

Yeah.

Ashley: 17:22

But I think, like, they'll, they'll, they find different ways to show them. But they don't, they might not always like, speak them.

CJ: 17:30

Yeah. And it was the opposite for me. Ariana wouldn't, my wife, Ariana wouldn't let me go to her appointments anymore. With her oncologist, because she's like, you just cry all the time.

Ashley: 17:40

You don't have a problem showing it, CJ, that's for sure. Zero problems. Like, not in a bad way, like, you, it's uh, it's like, it's admirable.

CJ: 17:52

Yes. Except that my wife wouldn't let me be at the oncology sessions, but yes, so it's the opposite. Well. You're just gonna cry, CJ, don't, I don't want you there, like, okay, cool, thanks. But if you knew my wife, like, she very much was the, like. I'm stoic. I'm centered. I don't feel anything. Yeah, I'm just a puddle of

Ashley: 18:12

emotions.

Genna: 18:16

Yeah, I feel all my emotions all the time. My art is on my sleeve all day every day. Same.

CJ: 18:24

Same. All the time. I mean, I don't know. My kids tell me, they're like, you got to stop dad. Like we're at their doctor's appointments doing the physical and they're just like, is there anything you would like to share with us, dad? And I just started talking about how proud I am of them. And I started crying in the, and you just see them like this fucking guy, this fucking guy.

Ashley: 18:46

Well, yeah, they're like, get the fuck out of here. Like, I don't want to be here.

CJ: 18:51

I'm telling you. But the, I think the loss that we're talking about is like the, the days, the anniversaries, these things, like, I think it was a good point that you guys made of, we have control over these and in grief, we have zero control. We don't have control over the people we lose. We don't have control over the situation. We don't have control over our, our, our processing of these things. So, yeah, it's interesting to think, because those days where it just hits you like that, they always are harder to cope with. Like, for me, it's a lot of watching TV, and I'll hear certain dialogue. Like, even The Office, like, I'll re watch The Office and cry at The Office. I'm like, what the fuck? Like, why am I crying at this comedy show? But it's like, I see Pam and Jim, and I'm just like, reminded of these memories that I had with Ariana, and I'm like, fuck this.

Ashley: 19:44

Yeah, but like, in a way, isn't that like, beautiful?

CJ: 19:46

It is beautiful.

Ashley: 19:47

I've started, I, I cry, I cry, I have like little, I have, I tear up at like, a lot of things. Like, literally watching the video last night of Tamar Hamlin catch the interception, I was like, tearing up. I was like, this, like, I don't, like, why, like, how pathetic, but at the same time, I'm like, this guy, like, literally died and now he's so happy to be playing football. And it's, it is, like, amazing. But

CJ: 20:11

it is

Ashley: 20:11

I like I will tear up at a lot of things like that's kind of I don't know if that's because I'm getting older

CJ: 20:18

No, no. No, I think like well, I mean going through different life stages that you're going through now Yes but I do think like what we've talked about on here before is that the amount of of grief and pain that we experience Is the benefit of that is that that container that we build to hold it right and that's like what we're learning and therapy and healing and whatever we do to heal is the same container that we can hold joy, love and abundance and feelings. So I think like it just opens us up more to have these moments of appreciation, the moments of sadness and the moments of recognition of these human interactions that we experience in the world, right? Like here in the Red Hot Chili Peppers and having that memory, that sense memory of those that we lost. But I'm curious about. You've mentioned therapy a few times. Yeah. Was this something you were doing before? No. Okay, so this was triggered by the grief. So, What was that process?

Genna: 21:24

I kept waking up at 1. 38 AM for weeks. And I would wake up screaming, like, really? And so in my head I'm thinking that's probably when she died and I didn't find her

CJ: 21:43

until

Genna: 21:44

so many hours later, right? And so I was having heightened anxiety, heightened paranoia, insomnia, like all these different things. And I was like, you know what? I need to get into like a grief counselor. I need to get into grief therapy. I need to find a grief group, something. And so I went and I did my research and found a therapist who specialized in number EMDR therapy as well. And grief and trauma counseling. So I wanted to make sure I found somebody that did that. In case I wanted to do the EMDR, which I absolutely did. was super beneficial to my feeling.

CJ: 22:25

Yeah, same.

Genna: 22:26

And I was telling her like all the things that, you know, led up to our lives together, what the grief was looking like, how it was affecting my life. I also was working, you know, 16 hour days and food service, food management. So there wasn't a lot of time to just sit and be alone and focus on. I had to focus on running a business as well. So, she was like, you know what? You keep waking up at 1 38 AM. I want you to set your alarm for 1 30 AM. I want you to wake yourself up before you actually have this nightmare that you are waking yourself up, screaming from. And so she made me do that. And I would shoot her a week. So for a week, I set my alarm for 1 30 AM and I would wake up. And she would have me do breathing exercises and, you know, she'd help me with a journal and I would journal some things down how I was feeling when I woke up. And then I would get myself to go back into a restful sleep. And I would do that all the way up until I got to 1. 38 AM again. And she was Once I hit that mark of being able to sleep past 1. 30, 8 a. m., she put me through the EMDR therapy so that I could relive it and hopefully get through it. And this is something that people will always say, well, you lost both of your parents. Why did you go to therapy for your mom and not for your dad? And I hate that.

CJ: 23:55

Yeah.

Ashley: 23:56

I mean, that's a shitty question. What?

CJ: 24:00

That's literally

Ashley: 24:03

like saying, you like, you'll get married again to CJ or like, Oh, your mom's in a better place. Like, okay, well, you can

Genna: 24:11

have another kid because he lost life. It's like one of those, like, I'm, I watched my father become this shell of a human being. It wasn't him anymore when he, he was like, wow. boisterous man and like when he was dying He would whisper like super quietly because he, cancer just, it makes you just not wanna feel anything you don't wanna hear. You don't want just, so when he died, I was like, thank God. Right. But also, oh my God.

CJ: 24:46

Yeah.

Genna: 24:47

So she brought that into the scenarios, into my therapy as well. She, she's like, well, do you feel like you should be having more trauma related to your father's death? And I said, no. Fuck no.

CJ: 24:58

Yeah,

Genna: 24:59

I don't think so. I think that he should have, I wish that he would have. Had better chances, but they caught it way too late. He went through radiation for eight weeks. That almost killed him. He went through chemo. That almost killed him. He had a feeding tube put in. He hated that. It was put in horribly. And every single time we would feed him, it would just leak stomach acid everywhere. And so he was in pain all the time for four, three, four months. He was just in constant pain. And he doesn't do paying. Like. Love you guys very much, but y'all with pain or colds or anything. It just doesn't work very well. But for him, it was just the biggest, like I was so happy that, I hated that he died on Father's Day, number one. But I was happy that he was finally at peace. Peace, not in pain, not suffering, not having to be the shell of a human being. And so going through the EMDR therapy with my therapist, we went through the trauma, really relived everything leading up to my mother's untimely death and me finding her and the cop, whatever, the cop pulling me off of her. All my friends showing up at my mom's house to kind of comfort me to make sure I wasn't alone, making sure that I had somebody come home with me to make sure I wasn't alone at home that night. Because my sister and her husband, I mean, my sister, I have an older sister as well, and it was very traumatic for her as well, but she was there for my father's death, I was there for my mother's death. And so

CJ: 26:46

Has the relationship with your sister changed since losing the parents? Yeah.

Ashley: 26:52

In a good way, or?

Genna: 26:55

a little bit of both, a little good, a little bad. We handle our grief very differently. I went through the therapy. I went through everything that I felt I needed to do for my trauma. And I feel like her, the way that she handled her grief was completely different and that's totally fine. That's how she handled it. But she kind of like set it all in, bottled it up and went straight back to work within five days. And it was, to work for a month after that. My father, I was back at work within two weeks, but I couldn't ask my mother for a month because my work was just hounding me. We need you back. We need you back. And I'm like, go fuck yourself. Like, no, I'm, I'm doing what I need to do. And that's, that's. How it led me to y'all. I know, I was gonna say. Empathy. Yes.

Ashley: 27:46

Yeah.

Genna: 27:47

So, I was like, okay. So, empathy then to this, and so that's how it all came to you guys. And so

CJ: 27:56

Have you always been a type of person that's gonna just be like, this is what I need, this is what I'm gonna do, I don't give a shit what anybody says? Like That's pretty I don't like, statistically, I have no idea, but like, it feels like it's more rare for somebody to be like, you know what, I need a month off. I don't know if I can take a month off.

Genna: 28:13

That is me. 100%. It's a very, I have to be in control of everything around me and not like my marriage, life and shit, but like I'm a big control freak when it comes to like specific things. So. Not having control of my emotions was very unsettling. And so I didn't, I couldn't be the strong leader, the strong manager at work. If I couldn't even control my own tears, I couldn't be this person that they wanted me to be because I worked with a bunch of teenagers and, you know, young 20 somethings. And I was in my thirties. And so they're like looking at me like I'm some idol because I'm managing a business with them. And so. I couldn't be who I needed to be. I couldn't be who they needed me to be. So there was no way that I was going back. Although my work was like, you should come back. You need to be back. We need you. And it was all for business purposes. And I just, yeah, I was not happy with that, but that's neither here nor there. So the thing that a lot of people don't discuss when it comes to losing somebody so traumatically either, is you feel like everyone around you is about to die suddenly. Even yourself, there's somebody who had, I had some anxiety. I mean, a lot of people will always have anxiety, but my anxiety and depression were heightened and it still is till this day. And I always feel like that one little thing in my chest, Oh gosh, is that what my mom felt? Oh, I can't swallow my food correctly. Is that what my father felt? Oh no. Do I need, like, so. The medical anxiety that happens after both of these traumas is terrifying.

CJ: 30:15

Yes, I have it so bad. I'm

Ashley: 30:17

still, I'm still afraid of the doctor.

CJ: 30:20

Yeah, it was every day, and it's finally starting to get better, but it was literally every day, every thought was, Oh, I must have cancer. That thing must be cancer. One of the, the symptoms and progressions of my wife's cancer was a lot of people end up going blind. And she started, like, having issues with her sight. So, I'll be like, I'll go outside, look at, like, a really bright object because it's sunny out. And then you get the spots in your eyes until your eyes adjust and I'm like, Oh my god, I'm going blind. I'll have a panic attack. Like I was playing tennis and, and I would like get freaked out because it's like your eyes are trying to adjust so fast. And I would have to stop and cause I'd have panic attacks. But the medical anxiety, like people just don't talk about it enough. Then the response is always just like, you're fine, you're young, you're healthy, you're okay. And I was like, well, cool. But my wife wasn't supposed to have cancer. She had less than 1 percent chance. And also my son ended up having an extremely rare nerve tumor right after she died. So fuck your statistics. My brain doesn't give a shit about that. I'm convinced that I'm dying. It's fucking in like there's downward effects of that. Like it has affected different areas of my life that I am still trying to heal from and it just brings like anxiety and shame and like. You want to experience joy and you want to feel better, but you feel so helpless to it. Yeah.

Genna: 31:57

Yeah. 100%. And it isn't talked about enough because I went down that rabbit hole and was constantly going to the doctor. I bought all different pieces of medical equipment. I was like, I'm going to get a blood pressure cuff. I'm going to get a heart rate monitor. I'm going to do this. I'm going to go get a new PG done. I'm going to get a complete workup. And it's like, You're normal. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't feel normal. Something's wrong. I want you, I want you to find something so that you can fix it. And that, in that essence, then nothing's wrong. My own head.

Ashley: 32:32

I have like the, well, kind of an opposite of that right now, which is. They've like figured out that I have like a 21 percent chance of getting breast cancer based on some scale. And I, they get like every six months, it's like MRI MRI month, one mammogram month, seven plus ultrasound, plus like manual clinical breast exam or whatever. I'm like. Bro, I don't even have cancer yet. Like, why? Why is there so much? And they're like, Oh, well, it's just being safe. I'm like, I, I get that. But like, this is like a lot, like every single time. This is like triggering. And so I'm like, also, like, why do you need to have like some manual exam? What the fuck is the point of a fucking mammogram? Like, what do you the mammogram doesn't pick up a Uh, a bump. Like, how are you? How is your hand? So I just like I'm almost like it's so it's it's not I know it's not overkill, but like it feels like overkill and it's like every single I'm like in there, I don't think that every single person in that like in those environments like realizes it like. Even when I went to the, like the the gyno, there's like, Oh, well, we have to, I was like, you're not fucking doing a breast exam. Like, I don't care what you say. So like, I've had five of them. I'm good. I'm great. And if I get cancer, it's my fault. I don't care. I'm going to take my chances. And then it's like, then it gets into this whole other issue that like some people can't even get a mammogram and like are getting cancer at stage four, but you're worried about giving me. Yeah,

CJ: 34:15

I mean, we never would have, there's no amount of time that we could have caught Ariana's cancer that it ever would have presented in a mammogram. They even said like, we never would have found this in a mammogram.

Genna: 34:27

I didn't find my father's until he passed out. And right, like everything always comes back normal for a lot of people, 100 percent of the time. And it's that one thing, like you, it. You need a full body MRI every like two to three months just to check for things and even then.

Ashley: 34:45

Yeah. Yeah. CJ, was like, was it like an MRI would cover it? Like catch it?

CJ: 34:49

An MRI, yeah, an MRI probably would have. Yeah, because that, I think that looks at densities and stuff. But like, one of the, so I'm, I'm the opposite of you, Jenna. Like, I used to be, At the doctor's, my checkups, my blood work. What do you want me to do? I got it. I feel good. I'm in control. My wife died. That health anxiety was, is so bad. I'm like, I'm too scared to go to the doctor. I still do. But the fear and the panic is so high that I'm like, So afraid of everything. If my phone rings, I'm afraid because every time my wife's phone rang, it was bad news. Right. And then doing blood work. Like I will do, I try to do quarterly. blood work with this other company just to like chart my stuff and cause they do more than what the doctors do. Just that it's not going to show me anything that's going to kill me. It's just like your panel, your triglycerides, all that stuff. Testosterone. I still panic. Oh my gosh, it's going to show me that I'm dying. Like I, my B12 was super high, but my vitamins were insane. And I was like, Oh, I just have to stop the vitamins. But my brain's like, you probably have cancer. So like it like did the opposite effect of me. And then it also created this distrust in the medical field where I have such like intense fear of STIs. Now that I'm like, I have to date to the point where my doctor's like, stop getting tested. You have to stop. You're fine. You haven't even had sex with anybody, you know, since the last time you tested, why are you testing again? But in my mind, I will literally walk out of the test, the blood test, the blood draw and be like, I should probably go back in and get more blood done to do multiple tests. And I'm like, I think your tests are wrong. I think there is something wrong with me and like, no, no, no, we've done this a long time. We know how to like multiple tests to check. So yeah, it just creates this mind fuck in us where everything just becomes pure illogical. But I say all that to say, I had a really good doctor when I lived down in California who Was the best bedside manner and he looked at me during the yearly physical and I was like, should we do blood work? Should we do all these different things? And he was like, why? He's like, if you keep looking, Eventually, you'll find something that's probably actually inconsequential, but a test might make it seem like it's more than it is, you know, like we were getting, we have benign cells and cancer cells all the time, they die out, and he's like, How deep do you want to go? And he's like, How do you feel? How do you feel mentally? How do you feel physically? How's your energy? Have things changed? Those are the signals that you look for. And it was the only doctor that ever like ever put into perspective for me to just like, okay, yeah, you're right. We can just chill out.

Genna: 37:54

I think that's what happened with my sister. So you just want the complete opposite. It's like, I'm not trusting anybody. And then,

CJ: 38:01

but who do you trust then? Right.

Genna: 38:03

Yeah. How do you trust when everything looks fine and everyone, your Mom is happy and dancing and singing you happy birthday and all this two days later. She's dead like what?

Ashley: 38:14

And do you know like what the cause was?

Genna: 38:16

I do and it's probably very controversial Honestly, we know what the time was when, uh, 2021 was happening. And so, uh, very controversial. It is what it is. Yeah.

CJ: 38:30

So there's even more kind of tumultuous stuff around, which makes it even more traumatic.

Genna: 38:40

Exactly. And what they listed as her cause of death doesn't, uh, oh, that's

Ashley: 38:46

fucking annoying. Yeah. Yeah.

Genna: 38:47

Yeah, because I don't know if you know in the Jewish religion, we are not supposed to have autopsies done unless it is under circumstances that are deemed to be mysterious.

CJ: 39:02

Oh,

Ashley: 39:02

I had no idea.

Genna: 39:04

We are supposed to come into the earth and leave the earth as we were. So nothing should be taken. Nothing should be done to your body. Nothing. Your body is a temple, you know, and as we get more modernized, you know, we have our piercings and whatnot, but I remember one day my father's was very straight to the point. We know what killed him, obviously, but in My mother's death, I remember when she got to the morgue, they called me, and they had just taken her body, number one, and I'm like, sitting there with my sister, her husband, my friends, and I'm like, I don't know what the fuck to do. And this forensic examiner is calling me and like, hey, there's a small bruise on your mom's head, we're gonna have to do an autopsy. Oh, and I said, the fuck you are. Do not fucking touch her. Yeah. You're not doing that. You're not touching my mother's body. I refuse. Do not do this. And it's like, well, in this County, in this state, We have the right and authority to do.

Ashley: 40:09

Wait, wow, even with like religion? Like religion doesn't trump that?

Genna: 40:13

Yes.

Ashley: 40:14

That's crazy.

Genna: 40:15

So I got them to avoid the full, like the Y cut autopsy and whatnot. I just allowed them to do the blood work. I allowed, I allowed them to look at the bruising that was on her head. But I refused to let them do the full. And whenever I saw her body, I. I lifted her shirt up. I was like, no, like I'm making sure that you didn't touch my mother. So they just based it assuming on the symptoms. So that is what is listed on her death certificate, unfortunately. But I can't change that. And I was in such a state of unrest when they called me and like anger and shock. Like I didn't, I screamed when I found her, but I never cried. And I didn't cry for three days until I saw her body. Well, two days. Cause I saw her body in two days. Dudes have to be in the, in 48 hours. So it's like, bang, bang, bang, bang. We need to get you into the ground real quickly. So, You don't have a lot of time to process when you have

Ashley: 41:28

to put

Genna: 41:29

your, yeah, so, okay, here's the funeral home. Okay, hey, we need to get all of it. We have to notify all the friends and family. We have to, and it,

CJ: 41:41

that's so much. I mean, we did mine, my wife's in I think 14 days, I purposely took time.

Genna: 41:50

Yeah. My father's was, Three to 72 hours. And I remember feeling that internal panic and I'm like, Oh my God. And he should have been buried with military honors, but we couldn't get a military honor company to come or a military funeral accompaniment. So that was hard. But my mom, it was very quick because I had just gotten married in 2020, right before COVID hit.

CJ: 42:19

No way.

Genna: 42:20

So the rabbi that married me, I called him immediately and I was just like, Hey, my mom died. And he was like, I'm there. I'm canceling everything. I will make sure I'm there for you. So I was lucky in that essence because had I not been married just a year previously, I would have been calling rabbis during the height of COVID and be like, hey, I need a funeral. Right. And I'm like, well,

CJ: 42:44

unbelievable.

Genna: 42:45

Everybody and their mom needs a funeral right now. Get in line. And it's like, thank God for that.

CJ: 42:51

So the process of entering therapy and beginning therapy, would you be able to talk a little bit about like what that that journey has been like from the start to where you are now, especially as somebody new to therapy?

Genna: 43:05

Yeah, absolutely. So Don't be afraid to start it and don't be afraid to shop around therapists. Number one find someone that you mesh with because I went through four before I found one that I was like, I feel comfortable opening up to you. And I always thought it would be a male therapist, a young. I just thought I would mesh very well because I. I don't know why, but I just thought that would be better for me was to talk to somebody who wouldn't have those emotions like I'm I didn't want to speak to a mother. I don't want to give a mother mine.

Ashley: 43:45

Yeah.

Genna: 43:46

So, and in the end, I ended up with a Christian woman who was a mother of So, but it was eye opening to have those types of conversations with her and she really, I felt at ease with her. And you always wanna feel at ease with your therapist. And not every therapy is gonna be covered, not, I was lucky that I had great insurance that covered it, and then when I left my job, I was still going to see her and it didn't cover it, and I didn't care. I made it work because I knew I had to make it work. And it was just a quick, honestly, it was a quick Google search. Number one, what worked with my therapy or what worked with my insurance at the time. I called around, I saw who had availability as soon as possible because I knew I needed help immediately. Otherwise, I was afraid I would have needed to be committed. honestly,

CJ: 44:44

just because of the sense of feeling so out of control,

Genna: 44:47

out of control, out of the depth of my and my husband had to go back to work. So I was left alone. So he was home for a while, like he stayed home with me for a few weeks, but he had to go back to work. Somebody had to be working in our household. So when he left, I was like, I need to find it there. I need to find somebody because my friends understand and they're all they mean well, but they can't help me right now. And I remember talking to one of my friends. I'm like, I need help. I need help. I'm some, but something needs to change. And she sat down with me and she helped me to find a therapist and help me to unlock all my benefits with the health insurance and make sure that I found somebody that worked with my network and whatnot. And so starting therapy was not easy because you unload a lot of personal grievances against your family and you feel like you're talking shit about them behind their back and they're dead. So, and I hated that part of it because my parents divorce was very ugly. And my father felt very jilted when my mom filed for divorce. And so there was always this disarray within. our family. And my sister was very team dad and I was always team mom. And so,

CJ: 46:18

it's interesting that she was the one that was there when your dad passed and you were there with your mom.

Genna: 46:25

And I think that's part of our Why our relationship got, not, I don't want to say it got strained, but it definitely changed. Changed. Yeah. It definitely changed.

CJ: 46:37

Yeah. And I think there's a recognition that we do all grieve differently and, and they're, they're, I feel it's important to have the, I'll say respect or the appreciation of how somebody else would grieve. Uh, I have found that oftentimes. There's maybe some form of projection that happens, uh, especially from those who aren't experiencing the grief, looking inward towards us. So those that are grieving and, and saying like, I couldn't do that. Or, you know, you should do this or you should all the shoulds. Why aren't you doing this? You should do that. And it's like the guilt and this unintentional and sometimes intentional judgment where it's like, take a step back. You deal with your own shit. Like if this makes you uncomfortable, my life situation, recognize that. But don't come to me with your bullshit or the expectation that I'm going to be who I was or somebody you think I should be, right? Like, grief changes us. These intense moments of grief, experiences of grief, I should say, quite literally change who we are. It changes us to our, to the DNA. And I think that's why, like, Somatic therapy, EMDR, these therapies that work on the body on that level are so important and so effective because we do change like I have been completely disconnected from my body. My body is my enemy, right? Like that's how it is felt through some of these traumatic events where In my mind, I'm like, it's just, it's dying. It's trying to kill me. It's trying to take away the things in my life that I need to hold on to because all the good things I've lost. So yeah, so I think it's, it's, it's interesting to some of the therapies that I've heard other people talk about too, and what's been really effective for me too. It has to do with the body and dealing with the body. But so as you've gone through this therapy, as you have, you know, Kind of worked on that grief and, and I would assume maybe taking some sense of control over your grief, at least that container expanding so you can have those wild swings and it not feel so out of control. What has the relationship with your mom? How has that evolved? Like she has passed. You know, and, and I would assume that it has evolved over the past three years as you have healed as well, like, where do you feel it's at now? Are there things you do to remember her, to honor her, to connect back to her, to, you know, commune with her, like, whatever those practices that you might have, like, what have you done?

Genna: 49:35

So what have you gone? Yeah, my mom was a world traveler too. She super smart graduated high school at 16 traveled everywhere got married super young divorced that husband because he crashed two of her cars and just Got married to my father met my father while she was a blackjack dealer in vegas and took all of his money So, I mean she never wanted me to be stuck in this little box. Like she wanted me to experience life. And I remember after she died, I was like, I can't go out there. I can't do anything. I'm not going anywhere. I'm not doing a fucking thing because it's scary out there.

CJ: 50:16

Yeah.

Genna: 50:17

And going through therapy, I have. And really with my husband, too. I've completed different things in my life that are physically and mentally challenging that I never thought I'd be able to do. And what I mean by that is just recently my husband and I came back from a seven day trip to Glacier National Park where we hiked 60 miles in a week and did things that I didn't know my body was even capable of doing. We traveled to different states and done different adventures together. We've experienced things together. But I know I can just feel both, not just my mom, but both my parents are just like, I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you for getting out there and not allowing your body just to sit in shame. Feel the guilt. Like, don't feel the guilt anymore. You don't have anything to feel guilty about. You didn't kill me. So go live your life, go be who you need to be. Stop letting the grief hold you back from experiencing the beauty that is our world out there. I don't stop myself from taking PTO days to experience new adventures. I just read my husband just recently was like, Hey, I'm taking three days off in the middle of the week in October. What do you want to do? And I'm like, well, I'm taking three days off with you. What are we going to do? Like, just because. You have to live and stop worrying that you're gonna, I mean, we're all gonna die. And I want to, the relationship that I have now is I can tell that my mom is like with me, number one, always. I can tell my father is with me always in different experiences. I can feel them Kind of pushing me and trudging me on. My dad would be like, I can't believe you did this. I can't believe you did that. You should be more safe. You should be safe. And, you know, just like, why are you putting yourself in the experience, like, you know, where you could get hurt or die? And my mom's like, fuck, yeah, keep going, bitch. Like, you know, I think I can. I love that. So. Completely different experiences.

CJ: 52:43

Yeah. It's almost like the, the experience that I had, it really kind of started once my wife got her terminal diagnosis, but it's, there's so much bullshit in life that just doesn't matter anymore. There's just so many little things that I encountered through the day. And I'm just like, Whatever, I don't got fucking time for that like there's things that I want to experience because when you see death Firsthand and experience that grief firsthand. I mean, it's a very common thing It's almost a fucking meme where it's just like don't sweat the small stuff and all these other sayings But you almost can't get there until you experience something so difficult where it's just like Yeah, no, I really don't fucking give a shit anymore. Like fuck all that shit. But I think what's so amazing about what you just said is. You, you are not only going out and experience things, but you said you were doing things with your body that you didn't do before or think that you could do. And, uh, this new therapy that I started, we were talking about how, you know, We relate to the world through our body, right? Mm-Hmm. through our senses our experiences with other people. You know, being in people's presence, just how we walk through the world. And when you are disconnected from your body or you, you know, the story of your body is that its experience has been traumatic, you lose that sense of. connection to the world.

Genna: 54:17

Uh,

CJ: 54:17

and for me, this was really eye opening. Like, it is not something that I connected before and all the fucking therapy that I've done. And it's interesting because you are putting yourself and your body into those situations to reconnect to the world. And I think that's just fucking beautiful and amazing that you've been able to do that.

Genna: 54:37

Because I remember when my husband was like, He can't sit still. So we have to do things all the time. So

Ashley: 54:45

when

Genna: 54:50

he gets bored, he gets too antsy and then just doesn't work out. So I constantly have to make sure that we have things to keep us busy. And when I work from home, it's like, okay, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to go. I want to get out. I want to get out. Let's go, let's go, let's go. Let's do things. And With this, literally just got back two, three weeks ago, I think, from Glacier National Park. And the first day we did 15 and a half miles. And I remember climbing up the side of this mountain. And I'm like sitting there, I'm like carrying 20 pounds in a backpack. And he rips the backpack off of me. And he's like, I'm taking this. Like, you're not gonna, like, you're gonna make this. Like, keep going. It's gonna be worth it. The reward is going to be worth it. It wasn't an asshole about it at all, whereas I've seen, like, other couples, like, passing by, they're like, keep going, just fucking get up the mountain, and it's like, no, like, it's not gonna work on me, number one, don't tell me that, but he's like, think of what the view is gonna be like, think about what you're gonna see, think about the sandwich that you're about to eat whenever you get out there, you know, like, and to have somebody push me to be better because he knows I can be better. And it's also rewarding in and of itself. Yeah.

CJ: 56:08

Yeah.

Genna: 56:09

I have that type of partner and it's not always that way. Of course, marriages are very up and down, no matter who you are. But in that moment, I remember being like, my mom would be so proud of me. My dad would be so. upset with me, but I'm here and I'm doing it and I'm doing it because I can now, not because I don't want to, because I able to, my body is allowing me to do the things that I never thought I'd be able to do. And so it's, I still have the anxiety. I still have the depression. It's not something that will ever go away. The guilt from both my parents passing, just why didn't I notice things sooner? I'm a. professionally trained pyramid, like, why didn't I force my mom, grab her by the hair, drag her to the hospital, the guilt, the what if, the what ifs will fucking eat you alive. Yes. And I still do it to myself. What if those, I remember what we've talked about, it's not the days, it's not the death days, it's not those specific days, it's in the grocery store. And I'm like, well, what if I had just,

CJ: 57:34

you know,

Genna: 57:35

what if, and. That was one of the bigger things that I worked on in therapy as well, was the what if, because there was nothing I could do. I'm not a doctor. I couldn't have opened up my mom's chest. I couldn't have saved my father from his cancer. I couldn't have done anything. So why did I keep blaming myself for both of their death, especially my mom? Because I knew something was wrong.

CJ: 58:00

Yeah. Yeah. That I've, I've had that same experience. It haunts me or even just like replaying moments where I was just like, why did I do that? Why did I act that way? Like she was probably in horrific pain. Like the week before, two weeks before she ended up dying, she had to go in for her brain radiation. So I wanted to move a TV into our room. Cause I knew that she would be in bed all the time. Seems good enough. You know, put a TV, we can all stay in there with the kids. And which meant I had to get another TV for the living room. And here I am like trying to hang this thing myself. And I was like, can you come help me? And she was trying and I could just like, and she just was like, I can't do it. I just can't lift it. And I got frustrated and I look, look at like little moments like that. I'm like, what the fuck you piece of shit. Like you, you can't even imagine the pain that she was in because like, but I didn't, she never told anybody. But with, with that I would love to hear one of your favorite memories with your mom and, and if you'd want to share as well with your dad before we let you go.

Genna: 59:07

Yeah. My mom and I were very similar. So we butted heads quite frequently and until I turned 18 years old, which is funny when I became an official adult, I guess you could say, she took me on a trip, a work trip with her to California, and we stayed at the Hotel California, literally, the Hotel California during the Super Bowl, and it was the weirdest thing ever, Crime because it was freezing cold that weekend in 2008 super bowl weekend and We just stayed on the beach. We both ran into the water, freezing cold. We ran back out and we go back into our hotel room. It has no heat. It has no air conditioning. It's on the beach. Like, what did we expect? What did we think was going to happen?

CJ: 59:58

Yeah.

Genna: 59:59

And my mom was notorious for renting vehicles that were awesome. So she had a, She got the great ideas, like, well, let's just get in the car, we'll warm up in the car. It was a convertible Mustang. And so we're, we're flying down, I don't even remember what, like, Santa Monica Boulevard, I think it was. Santa Monica Boulevard, just going a hundred miles an hour down Santa Monica Boulevard. Freezing cold, hair soaking wet, just both soaking wet. With the top down? Top down, but with the heat blasting on her, just jamming to the red hot chili peppers because smoking a joint together. And I was like, we're smoking a joint in California. Like, what are we doing? Like what mom? And she was like, it's legal here, honey. Like, who cares? We're in California. So, and in that moment, our relationship changed from being the butting heads, mom and daughter to becoming best friend. And I was lucky enough to have her for the next 13 years. As my best friend And with my father I just recently had this experience this this core memory with my father I don't know if you remember in the malls when they would have like those like cinnamon roasted nuts and they would smell really freaking Okay, so Anytime my dad. Yeah, my dad would see them in the mall. He would just get this stupid voice And they go, Oh my God, I got to eat these nuts. I need to eat these, just like, I'm just this little girl. And he's like making fun of these nuts. And I'm like, Oh, this is so funny. And my husband and I went to a concert two nights ago and they had. Cinnamon roast, those roasted pecans and he goes, Ooh, what smells good? Like, I wonder what smells really good. And I'm like, Oh my God, it's the nuts, it's these nuts, it's just this core memory was just like engaged. And I immediately pulled out my phone and told it to my sister and she was like, Oh my God. And it just brought me back to my childhood happiness of being with him and having, I didn't have a lot of memory, I have a lot of memories with him, obviously, but I didn't have a lot of time with him being four years old when my parents divorced. So, the memories I do have with him from my childhood are very limited. So, those corment, like, it's just a certain smell brought me back to that specific memory. Every single time we were with him, he always took us to the mall, so we always smelled those roasted pecans, and

CJ: 1:02:50

That's awesome. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that with us. Absolutely. And we appreciate you coming on and kind of opening up, I think. There's a lot of important things said and, and I'm grateful that you brought those to light and kind of, it's amazing to see the journey like into therapy and into healing and to where you are now and, and it's a long journey, it's a lifelong journey, but yeah, thank you for, for being on and thank you for sharing your mom with us. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Day After. You can find this podcast and more at our website. site at www. thedayafter. com. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd really appreciate it. If you could take a moment to leave us a review, wherever you listen to your podcasts.