Journaling Through Grief: Jennifer's Path to Healing After Tremendous Loss | The Day After Ep. 1

Welcome to premiere of Season 3 of The Day After, the podcast where we explore the deeply personal and often challenging experiences of navigating life after loss. In today's episode, special guest Jennifer joins hosts Ashley Infantino and CJ Infantino to share her poignant journey through grief and the transformative power of journaling.

Jennifer delves into her own story, from the tragic loss of her brother 41 years ago to the passing of her mother, beloved husband Bob, and father. Along the way, she critiques the binary win/lose mentality often applied to grief and discusses her skepticism about the five stages of grief model.

Listen as Jennifer opens up about how journaling has played a critical role in her healing, allowing her to reframe each day positively and acknowledge her accomplishments even amid profound loss. She talks about her art journal, "The Hospice Doctor's Widow," which documents her experience during Bob's illness and provides solace to others in similar situations.

Throughout the episode, CJ and Jennifer emphasize the importance of accepting that grief doesn't simply vanish and discuss the dangers of toxic positivity and obligatory gratitude. They share practical insights on end-of-life care, the significance of cherishing "precious time," and the value of maintaining connections with deceased loved ones.

Join us as we explore the enduring power of love through grief, the complexities of navigating loss, and the essential role of community and authenticity in the healing process. 

Don't forget to leave a review and visit our website for more content. Thank you for listening to The Day After. Let's dive in.

You can find Jennifer's journal, "The Hospice Doctor's Widow", anywhere books are sold online. 

Transcript

Jennifer: 0:14

The grief begins 41 years ago I was eight, 18. I had just gone off to my freshman year in college and sort of my first time away from home and three weeks into it, uh, when just about the time I was starting to get the rhythm and not having a big ol lump of homesickness in my throat every morning I came back from a morning class. And the, back then we had one big black phone between the dorm rooms and, uh, the girls next door said, yeah, do the phone, someone's been calling for you. And I didn't have to wait long for the phone to ring again. And it was a guy named Stuart Sherman, who was the father of a good, of a good friend of mine. Thirteen year old brother David's, my only sibling and uh, Mr. Stewart said, Jennifer, I want you to sit down. Really never good news when they tell you to sit down. And and he told me that my brother had been in an accident that he was still alive and he had made arrangements for me to come home you know, so I packed a bag and I flew home and David was in a coma and he had sustained some pretty bad injuries and he, uh, for three weeks he was in the coma and then, uh, there was, you know, an MRI revealed no brain activity and so my parents had to make the difficult decision to extubate him and he died on October 20th, uh, 1983. Yeah. How old was he? He was 13. Holy shit. I was, yeah, holy shit, indeed. I was 18 and, uh, I can tell you we, we don't do grief great now. We really didn't do it well in 1983.

Ashley: 2:31

Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer: 2:33

And, uh, I can also tell you as a survivor sibling, specifically a sole survivor sibling, You know, I think a lot of grief stories are unique. There are as many different grief stories as there are grievers but I think it's safe to say in general, survivor siblings suffer multiple losses because parents just aren't able to be parents to the remaining kid or kids. When they have lost one of them you know, they're just crushed under, uh, under the grief of having outlived one of their children. And so you know, I think it was a, it was a, it was just a particularly profound loss for me, uh, I mean it was for them too, of course, but you know, I kind of lost all three of them that day and and that, you know, that just, uh, that just shaped me, you know, at, at 18 and, and now I'm 59 and I can just tell you that it, that it, it shaped me, shaped just about everything about the last 41 years. Yeah, uh, not quite 20 years. After David's death, my mother was diagnosed with a pancreatic cancer and by the time it died, it was diagnosed, it was already in her spine and lots of other places. And so she lived for five weeks following the diagnosis. I was her caregiver during those five weeks and and, and she died. And I, I can honestly say that I think the news of her diagnosis on some level she welcomed. I don't think she wanted to live to the 20th anniversary of my brother's death.

Ashley: 4:44

I think it was

Jennifer: 4:44

very comforting for her to be able to make an honorable exit. I, I, you know, we didn't talk about this, but I suspect, uh, she really struggled, uh, a lot with, with going on after his death. And so, yeah. In a weird way, it was a blessing that that she died of you know, cancer about, about six months before what would have been the 20th anniversary of, of his death. And I can also say that perhaps I didn't experience Some of the same parental grief that a lot of folks do when their parents died because I sort of felt I had lost them, her, both of them, a long time prior and had a lot of responsibility as the sole survivor sibling. So I miss her. I still miss her. She was a wonderful mother. But there was a sense of, you know, her being unburdened of, of her life, uh, outliving her son. And so that wasn't, uh, wasn't, as I've gotten into this space of, you know, death and so forth since the publication of my journal. I've learned that lots of people when they lose parents, I mean, parental loss is one of the biggest losses that, you know, people describe. And I get it, uh, except that I just didn't experience it that way because, because of David's death. So anyway and then I, Met and fell fell in love. I don't know how much of the sort of backstory but I at late later in life. I met the most amazing man. He was a physician he He had been a plastic and reconstructive surgeon and unable to operate because of a neck injury that caused, you know, really bad pain. In microsurgery, you have to sort of do this Dracula position where the loops to be able to visualize the structures. And he couldn't do that anymore because of an injury in his neck and so he had retrained in hospice and palliative medicine. I didn't meet him until after he was already doing hospice and palliative medicine. It was super, there were many things about him that were wonderful, but the hospice and palliative medicine was one of them for me because of my brother being in the coma for three weeks and knowing what to do. family had gone through. And because of my mother, you know, dying of cancer. So I knew how important the work he was doing was. Besides he was adorable and smart and funny and all the good stuff that makes you fall in love with a person. And I fell in love with him and we got married and we had this, He had this amazing, amazing life and then he found a couple of lumps on the left side of his neck, and it turned out they were, uh, metastatic sites of a renal clear cell carcinoma and you know, already stage four, already also in his spine and he lived for 22 months. following the diagnosis and I took care of him. We did very thorough preparation for his death and my survivorship. And, uh, and I, I, I bring that up because I think it's so important. Grief is excruciating when it's combined with an unprepared for death of an adult. so much. It gets really muddled with administrative, you know, crap that you have to do after someone dies. Whereas if we would all do a little bit better job of preparing and having these conversations and making plans, right? Because it's not an if.

Ashley: 9:15

Yes.

Jennifer: 9:16

It's a win. That that's a real, that that was certainly a, a great gift that Bob and I left for me and it makes, it just, it doesn't make it easy. It makes it easier after someone dies when, when things were really well prepared for. So that, that was, uh, that was another, you know, that, I'm not sure it's wise to compare, but I would have to say that at this point that's been really the toughest, uh, loss. And then two years ago, my, my dad died. So he died of you know, he had congestive heart failure and lots of lung disease. And he was 85 and it was, it was peaceful and yeah. And so he died two years ago which, you know, leaves me alone. Uh, I, I did not have kids. I, you know, I don't have any other siblings and, and so so I'm on my own. With the exception, of course, of some extended family and a wonderful group of friends, you know. So that's, that's that. Yeah. Those are, those are my big ones. There's, there's been a couple of other significant losses, friends, you know, and so forth, but those are the, the, the big ones, you know, the ones that make up my family.

CJ: 10:48

Appreciate you sharing all of that. It is, it is it's a lot. It's, it's. I definitely want to go back to the beginning but, uh, the question I had in my mind first too is I'm like trying to lay out these timelines. So you met Bob after your mother had passed?

Jennifer: 11:10

Oh, yes. Yes. Okay. Many years after. Gotcha. After she passed. Yeah.

CJ: 11:14

Gotcha. Okay. So it was, it was probably about seven

Jennifer: 11:17

years after she passed. And what was your

CJ: 11:18

brother's name again?

Jennifer: 11:20

David.

CJ: 11:20

David. That's right. Okay. So it was David and then Bob. So 18 years old. We're really not supposed to experience death yet, or at least societally, that's what we say. Uh, and now you have somebody as close as your brother. And you said it affected the past 41 years of your life. So I want to start there of what, what did you feel was happening at the time? Because you're now ready to go out into the world and to learn how to be an adult. But like you said, you lost your job. Your whole family, your brother and and your mom and your dad. What did that look like? What was that effect in your life as you're like preparing to go be an adult now? Hmm hmm. Same. Wow. Oh, okay. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah, I can imagine. It's, it's interesting that you, the reaction you had to the grief was to go hard into just focusing on your studies, right? Or like, do you feel like you were doing that almost as a distraction from? Okay. So I'm curious. Yeah. So Yeah,

Ashley: 19:05

that's pretty impressive to be able to focus that much.

CJ: 19:08

I was just going to say, because it's so hard for me to, I, I was the opposite. I could not put myself into work or studying or whatever the case may be. For me, I was like, I just, I just had to wallow in it. I could not. Like it took everything in me to be like, okay, I gotta focus. I gotta focus. I gotta focus but I guess I I want to know like That was the reaction to David dying. And then you mentioned that it was a different sort of grief and experience when your mother had passed, because in some ways you were already had grieved her, right. By losing like maybe that, that that presence in your, in your life. So the, the degree that it was before David passed. So I want to do a comparison of, of David passing and Bob passing. And. Was your reaction the same, or has things changed and evolved for you as you have started to learn and explore your grief, which I want to get into? So the reaction was different, very different for him when he passed.

Jennifer: 20:21

Yeah, the reaction with Bob was much different. Of course, I was, I don't know, 35 years older than Scott. than I had been when David died. And, uh, I'd lost some other extended family, you know, grandparents and more in order deaths, you know, instead of David was an out of order right? He was young, whereas, Grandparents are supposed to die before you kind of thing. And so, uh, and, and then of course another big difference was that Bob was sick for 22 months. And so we, like I said, we really thoroughly prepared. And Bob used to tell families that he cared for in his palliative care and hospice practice, you know, when he was sick. And when death was approaching, he would tell the family, you're into precious time. And he would say it just like that. I sort of thought at first that that was because he was from Texas, and you know how like southerners say insurance and umbrella, and I thought he was just like kind of putting the emphasis on the first word, but that was purposeful. Precious time is a type of time. It is the time that comes at the end of life. And I, I think especially when people have diagnoses like cancer even some chronic diagnoses, especially in our healthcare system, we get so wrapped up in the ca the healthcare, the you know, notion of a cure or defeating, if you will, which I, I hate those sorts of terms. War terminologies and sports terminologies as they relate to disease, but people use them a lot. Anyway, we get so wrapped up, and especially when you think about caring for someone who's ill, who's dying that caregiving, the average duration of that family caregiving is four and a half years. So, for four and a half years, right, you are, you are trying to help that person live as fully as they possibly can. So, you know, you're paying attention to things like blood sugars, and lab results, and scans, and right, and good night's sleep, and all this sort of stuff, and what, the reason that Bob would use this term precious time with families is because he wanted them to understand, no, no, no, none of that. None of that stuff matters at this point. This is coming to an end. And this is your time, precious time, is when you say your I love you's and your I'm sorry's and and you don't say what you might later regret saying. And you say your goodbyes and you say your thank you's and it was an incredibly powerful term that helped a lot of families understand. That they had shifted into this new phase of their person and saying goodbye to their person. So I, I knew about this. I mean, we used to get, I say we, that's not true. It was Bob, used to get thank you notes from families of their loved ones who had died saying thank you for telling us because so many other people, so many other professionals in healthcare. Won't ever come out and say, no, no, no, this is happening. Your person is dying. Yeah.

Ashley: 24:04

And that's

Jennifer: 24:05

super important so that you can, so you can have that precious time and you can make the most of it and just be, be with them. Anyway, because this was a term that Bob coined, I applied it to us right away. You know, 22 months out, of course, I didn't know it was 22 months out, but you know, at diagnosis. I believed we were in a precious time. We knew it was a terminal diagnosis, we knew it was coming and, uh, so I treated it that way. And that, that really helped a lot. It helped us just get closer and closer and closer. And we had an intimacy, uh, In terms of just being as close as we possibly could of sharing what was important to him, what was not important to him. I was totally committed to giving him, you know, the life, the end of life and everything after the end of life that he wanted. And he, and we, we discussed things just super thoroughly. We prepared. On a level that, you know, most, most folks don't even consider. I, I tell this story about how about six years after Bob died, I was doing some, Oh, sorry, sorry, let me back up. So we lived in this great big house, like I said, we were living the dream, right? And, When he got sick, he knew I wasn't gonna do well in that big house by myself, and he was right. And so we sold that house, and we moved in to the condo where I live now, and it's, you know, it's lovely, and it's got a doorman, and it's, you know, safe, and it's all these things that we, we, especially he, kind of mapped out for me, right, knowing that I would be alone. And so we moved into this condo and we were able to be here for 10 months before he died together. And so about six years after he died, I was doing some, you know, spring cleaning like stuff that you do. And I, and I just gone through drawers and stuff and all of a sudden I, I realized there's a flashlight in the top drawer of every structure in this place. And I didn't put that there. Oh my

Ashley: 26:38

gosh. It's a flashlight.

Jennifer: 26:39

Yeah, he put them there. Oh,

Ashley: 26:43

yeah. Oh my god. I love those.

Jennifer: 26:45

I know, right? It was just so beautiful and Such that and uh, and what I you know, one of the reasons I think you all found me is because I kept an art journal while I was taking care of Bob and I A couple years after he died, I, I've been in healthcare for 36 years. I was working in a big clinic and this neurologist told me that he was diagnosing three different patients with ALS. So I brought my art journal into him and he took it home and he came back the next day and said, you know, you're not getting your journal back. I will be loaning it to these patients and their spouses because, you It's really going to help them. And you need to figure out how to get that thing published because it'll help a lot of people in that same situation, which I did. And that's basically how I got into this space. The book got, the journal was published. As the hospice doctor's widow, and it, it has, it won awards, and it, perhaps most important to me is it has helped a lot of people understand that that story, especially of losing someone from disease you know, that that story begins much earlier than people realize. And so, uh, yeah, so that's when, that's how I kind of I had documented just a lot of our, you know, stuff. Uh, my feelings, his wis a lot of his wisdom just, Just a lot of stuff that turned out to be super helpful in helping people see how thoroughly we had prepared. Now, I will tell you that the instant he took his last breath, I wanted him back. Like, as hard as it was, and you know it's hard, right, when you've got a loved one who has this. any type of serious disease. There are moments, even in precious time, there are moments that are not, don't feel so precious, right? Like there's a lot of stuff. And it feels like you can't go on at times, but you do. And then the instant he died, I, I just, I just wanted him back. You know, I, I almost like all the hard stuff just disappeared. And and yeah, and I just, uh, And so, but what was nice, and one of the things I documented in that art journal was that by doing all the preparation and by me knowing exactly what he wanted in terms of the disposition of his remains and, you know, staying in touch with certain people or not staying in touch with people or he had, there were some items he had me give to people while he was still alive and there were some items he asked me to wait until after he died to give them. to people. He wrote a number of letters to, to friends and colleagues.

CJ: 29:53

Oh wow.

Jennifer: 29:54

Which was really lovely.

CJ: 29:55

Did you make the, so the journal that got published when you loaned it out to the, the neurologist, is that, was that something that you were creating as You were going through this with Bob?

Jennifer: 30:07

Yeah, I, I was making these, I, I've been a self taught collage artist for a long time. Right about the time Bob got sick, I decided to teach myself digital collage, which was very

Ashley: 30:22

cool.

Jennifer: 30:22

Yeah. Which was intense. It was actually, in a lot of ways, it was the perfect combination of head and heart, right? Like, I knew what I wanted to create, and yet I couldn't, I mean, you saw me at the beginning of this thing with the technology, right? Like I couldn't, I couldn't make it do, you know, it took me a lot of head work to figure out how to make it do what I wanted it to do. You know, to express what was in my heart kind of thing. And that, that just turned out to be a great, you know, occupation of, of my, my head and heart. But yeah, yeah, I totally, I totally did it as, as we went. There were, there were days, there was a day that we went to the notary public and put all, put the cars and the property. In my name and she said yeah, why are y'all doing this? And I said, Bob, Bob, you know, he was sitting right next to me and I said, Bob's dying. And she got really squirmy, weird, and I said, we're at peace with it, which was something I had heard Bob say to other people and was. You know, for the most part, true, I can't tell you I was at peace with it every moment of every day, but

Ashley: 31:36

for

Jennifer: 31:36

the most part, we were at peace with it. And that seemed to relax her enough to get through the task at hand. And so yeah, so that's a page in the journal. And actually I I don't have it, but I, I can certainly send it to you. There's a, a really cool Sorry, i'm looking around to see if I have it anywhere But I I created a symbol the at sign kind of connected with the peace sign And that's the art on that page. At peace. So

CJ: 32:11

did you put any references to the Precious time.

Jennifer: 32:15

Yeah, so precious time is at the very beginning of the book Yeah, yeah and precious time. It's funny precious time has become are, are almost larger than the book itself because it is, uh, such a great, you know, Bob obviously was a physician and I have been in healthcare, so I have now used my experience to educate other, you know, physicians and nurses and other healthcare professionals. And precious time has been one of the big ones. Like I, I have a, on my website, I have a, a free download that's all about using that term and why we use that term and it's meant, it's meant for healthcare professionals. Like here's how you say this because, and here's why you use this terminology because It helps people understand that death is coming. The only thing, you know, the only thing worse than losing someone you love to an illness is having lost them and saying, I thought we had more time.

Ashley: 33:26

Yeah.

Jennifer: 33:27

Right? Like, that's a terror. Bob and I both felt like I'd rather give you the hard, the hard news that it's coming to an end and have you maybe be pissed at me for a little bit, but hear me and do what you need to do with your person. Then, to have it slip away, and it happens all the time, all the time, that people whose loved one has a, you know, terminal illness, and it, and they die, and the person, and their loved one is just like, I, I thought we had more time, you know, I didn't, I didn't say this, I didn't crawl in the bed with her, or him, or what, you know, I, they have lots of regrets, and I think Bob and I were both really committed, I mean, Bob first, of course, and his. In his work, and then me, once the, the book came out, and, and the page devoted to Precious Time got, you know, made, had such resonated with so many people that, and especially healthcare people, that that became a really, a big deal.

CJ: 34:31

It is one of the biggest things that haunts me is, we knew that my wife was dying, I mean, she had terminal cancer. And we lived as intentionally as we could for the years that we had. But, It still felt like it went from zero to a hundred so fast, like she went from, I mean, she was, she was only NAD once the first year and otherwise it was just a constant. She was constantly under new treatment to, to try to keep the cancer slowing down, but it went from like, oh, it's just in the bone to it's everywhere. And we're going to try to treat it. And then it went to, well, we're treating it to Ashley's dad coming over and being like, we need to call the doctor. She doesn't look good. And then she was in hospice and five days later she was gone. And as much time as we thought we had those final few weeks, I was so concerned, especially that first night in hospice. She woke me up in the middle of the night. barely able to talk was like, you know, get everybody here. It's time. I was like, what the fuck do you mean? It's time. And she's like, just get everybody here. And so I was so focused on making sure that the family was there and that the family could say goodbye, that I never, ever feel like I got to say my goodbye. Because by the time things had calmed down, she was so doped up. Like she was under so much heavy medication. Yeah. You know, morphine and fentanyl and every possible thing to make her comfortable. And I hate it. It, it haunts me. It hurts. It was awful to realize, shit, I never actually got to have that goodbye conversation with her. Yeah. And I, and like I said, I think it, it happens so much and when, and, and I am grateful that I had so much, you know, we had some years to experience life together knowing she was going to die. When. Yeah. You know, to be fully honest, when people tell me like, well, you're lucky because it didn't happen right away and you got to say goodbye. I'm like, but I didn't. I didn't get to say goodbye. Right. And that hurts, you know?

Ashley: 37:00

Yeah. You didn't get to say goodbye in like the way you wanted to.

CJ: 37:02

Yeah. We didn't get to have those final, you know, this is what I think. I mean, the night before she went into hospice, she was acting weird and saying things to me and I was. You know, it was, but we didn't get to have that conversation.

Jennifer: 37:15

End of life is the one major healthcare event that every single patient faces, right? And yet, there is zero taught about it in medical school and residency.

Ashley: 37:33

Wow. Yeah.

Jennifer: 37:34

Zero. Nothing. Nothing is taught. And so, you end up with. Especially with a young person like your wife, you, you know, this is healthcare's problem and this is culture, our, our culture in this country's problem. But it's, you know, Oh, we've got this new drug. Oh, we've got this new drug and just kind of throwing therapies at something and hoping something sticks when in reality at some, at some point we need to be having conversations What's, what's, what do you really want with the time that's left? You know? What do you really want to do with the time that's left? And unless you get a good palliative care team involved and are willing to have those conversations you know, it really, it really gets lost. And it is ultimately the most important thing. Right? Yeah. The most important thing is that precious time, because not only, you know, it's a thing that we, every patient faces their own death, but more than likely, you will outlive someone you love at some point in your life. Every single person will. If we're lucky enough to love. Then we're probably going to outlive someone we love. And so it's not just, I mean, to me, it's, it's, it's one of the core elements of well being. You know, like there's just this, like so many people calling themselves wellness coaches in this world. And yet none of them. Is talking about having real conversations about wellness up until and beyond the last breath, your own or your loved one. I mean, to me, I don't, I don't know how you have wellness without, without doing that, but.

Ashley: 39:36

Yeah.

Jennifer: 39:37

We, we think, and I will tell you that the, the number one regret of loved ones who's, someone who has a loved one who has died in hospice care, the number one regret that those surviving loved ones have is that they didn't admit their loved one to hospice sooner. Because hospice is the time where we just focus on comfort and we focus on bringing the people in or, you know, you spending time alone with your wife and just, just being. And so, yeah, it's a, it's a big regret, and yet it just keeps getting, you know, I, I could just tell you horror stories about, about how hosp, you know, about how hospice is introduced when in fact it is, it is some of the most important care in our lives.

CJ: 40:31

We had and I've, I've talked about it on the podcast before, so I don't need to go into detail, but we had our first night. There's a first or second night because we did at home hospice and, you know, the nurse comes, they get you all set up, give you instructions and they go, uh, late into the night. It had seemed that my wife was getting agitated and, you know, I think she was probably the, I don't know, eighth person I've watched die. So I wasn't new to this the people around me had watched folks die. So we weren't new to this. So clearly, like she was agitated. The whole point is for her to be comfortable. I called, Hey is it okay if we do more morphine? I'm not sure what to do. I don't want to hurt her, but it seems like she's not comfortable. I'd gotten no instructions on what to do. What I was told, verbatim, just call us when she expires.

Jennifer: 41:29

Oh, yeah, that's not how it's supposed to go.

CJ: 41:33

And that was it. And then my dad called back 30 minutes later, and he got the same answer. It was horrific. It was absolutely. Yeah, that's not how it's supposed to go. Horrific. And, and, and I just don't understand how we get hospice so wrong.

Jennifer: 41:50

Well, we don't always get it wrong. That was wrong. There's no question that that was wrong. Yes, there's no question. That was, that was absolutely horrible. That's not, that's not how it's supposed to go. Uh, but yes, we, we, the hospice does, does go wrong sometimes and, and then of course, I think healthcare in general gets hospice wrong. Yeah. I think, I think, you know, I think there should be a, uh, American Board of Medical Specialties exam on every single, uh, specialty. Board examination that asks, what is the difference between hospice and palliative care? Because I can tell you that 99 out of 100 experienced physicians cannot tell you the difference between hospice and palliative care. No way. And there is. There's a big difference between the two and they don't know it. They just, they treat them as synonymous that they both mean someone's dying. Yeah,

CJ: 42:52

that is so, so, so scary and, and I, and, and I, yeah, and I didn't mean to imply that all of hospice was wrong. What I meant is like, how is, yeah, just this, this level of care and, and, and the requirement for sensitivity. Feels like it, it should be very, uh, trained in and why go into it if you don't kind of have a heart for, for wanting to have that sensitivity. But I wanted not to steer away from this, but you mentioned something that I really want to get into. So you talked about the language that we use around folks who get terminal diseases or just really anything health related. With this, this sports analogies or these war analogies, right? And I, and I find myself her battle of cancer, the war that like all this stuff, this, this harsh language. And I was at a conference one time and I was talking with this, this man, this gentleman, and he was a cancer survivor. And he called me out on, he was like, well, I don't, I don't really like the term battle or that your life, your wife lost. And it really stuck with me and I have yet to figure out the best way to communicate what that experience is like for an individual or for me is caring for her to go through. Uh, and every time I go to talk about it, I, I try to become very aware of that language. So I would love to hear. Kind of from you more about like what's been your experience like what is a good way that we can describe The reality of what it's like to go through that in a way that conveys it but also is Respectful to what it is and like yeah, like they didn't lose They just it was their time and this happened to be the outcome.

Jennifer: 44:52

Let me can I just go get my book? I have a yes That will be

CJ: 44:57

amazing Yeah,

Jennifer: 44:59

I love it

CJ: 44:59

yeah, absolutely

Jennifer: 45:01

So, just so you see, this is the page. And so at the top, in big letters, it has the word beat, warrior, battle, fight, conquer. And then here's the journal entry. I am so weary of the war language used in describing disease. His sister texts, we'll conquer this. Obituaries report, we'll conquer this. Blank lost his battle with cancer. This is so much more than winning or losing. Disease is a journey that calls for strength, sadness, believing, planning, hope, endurance, patience, joy, flexibility, mindfulness, resilience, and a sense of humor. Time and energy spent fighting the disease is not spent on loving each other and being together. This is a process and at the end he dies, not because he is a loser or weak, but because at the end of life Comes death when he dies. We'll say he lived a full life, we'll say he served his community as a physician. We'll say he was loved and will be missed. We won't say he lost.

CJ: 46:26

Hmm. That's amazing. I appreciate you sharing that. That's so beautiful. Yeah. And that is, and I think about, I think about that and I think about even the experience of, of the grief of, of losing my wife and, and, and the others in my life. And it's, it's always with this, this clenched fist. I'm going to fucking beat this, right? Like I, I literally had thoughts of, I will be the best griever to have ever lived. And I'm going to overcome this and it wasn't until recently the most like random thing happened. I, I, uh, I do trapeze, you know, like the flying trapeze and I'm new to it still. I've only done it for, for a little while. But, uh, one of the movements, the foundational movement is called the swing, and it's a little bit counterintuitive. There's, there's, there's steps in between that you have to do. And there's a lot of micro adjustments and movements and everything comes off of that. So it's something that you constantly practice and you're constantly adjusting. And I was up on the platform and I was getting ready to take off. And the instructor said to me is like, stop trying so hard, just go with it. And in the moment I was just like, Holy shit, I'm literally like muscling my way through this without grace and it's slowing me down and it's making it harder. And I came home that night and I was like, That's what I'm doing with my grief. I am muscling my way through this and I am fighting through this. And in that moment of that guy telling me of like, let's not use win, lose. Let's not use battle. Let's not use this, this thing. And I just realized that like, it puts me in that mindset of. Of like fighting

Jennifer: 48:37

you bring up a great point that honestly I hadn't thought about but we take that whole Binary win lose and we do take it over to grief and we act like, you know Oh, this is something you can overcome Grief inexperienced people will say, you know, are you through the five stages yet? First of all, they were never meant to apply to grief. They were meant to apply to dying. And secondly, they're not there. Well, they're very valuable, but they just don't apply to grief. And they're not linear stages. I wish she had used the word elements or something. But anyway uh, yeah, that, that, that you're, you bring up an excellent point. And I, and I think that's a little bit, that's probably. I don't know that I fought so hard, like, my grief was so different 41 years ago when David died. I think what I did was I just kept going. Yeah. And time, time doesn't heal per se, but it does, you have, as more time has gone by, right? One day you go, an hour just went by, and I was okay. Right? Yeah. And you were like, oh yeah, that can happen. And then it's two hours. And then it, you know, it just. And you, you start, the, the load that you're carrying, the grief that you're carrying gets a little lighter or as some people say, you know, your life builds around it and so it gets proportionately a little smaller than it was initially and so it's more carriable. But it, but it's not something that, It's not something to be fought or conquered.

CJ: 50:26

Yeah, I, I, I agree and, and I think that's the, the whole point of grief is it doesn't leave us. There is no way to get over it and no matter how much I knew that and preached that and talked about it and told myself that there was this light bulb moment of. I am trying too hard and it's creating, it's compounding the effects of it, you know, and, and I think it, it is the, the idea of time for me. I kind of like combine it with what you were saying, right? Like an hour goes by and then it's two and then it's that idea that it's like, we have to be mindful of every new beginning. And in the beginning, uh, in the, in the early stages of that grief, it was a second. Every second was a new beginning. Okay, I made it a second. I'm going another second. I just made it another second or a moment, you know, a better word. And then, like you say, eventually that, that expands out. And to me, like, time is not what heals me. Time is what gives, space to breathe to begin to heal.

Jennifer: 51:45

Yeah, for sure. There, there's another so there's another page in the journal that's from after Bob died and it, and I, and I talk about how uh, that I had read something about the, you know, people talk about one day at a time, right? Take it, take it one day at a time. You know what? Some days. An entire fucking day is too much, like, you are having trouble considering the next minute, much less a day. And so, what this, whatever I read suggested and then obviously journaled about was, instead, at the end of the day, look back and say. I got through another day, right?

CJ: 52:38

Yeah.

Jennifer: 52:39

I got through another day, and that's so much more powerful, I think, and effective when you're going through grief, that, that you're, instead of waking up in the morning and going, holy crap, how am I going to get through this day, that at night you're going, you know what, Jen? You did it. You did another one. Congratulations.

CJ: 53:01

Man, that's so powerful. So I just started doing this thing. So I get homework every week from therapy and my therapist is like, what I need you to do now is, and it's kind of similar to this is when you do something, you need to tell yourself, Hey, that's awesome. You just did that. And say it out loud, tell yourself and congratulate yourself and thank yourself and be grateful to yourself. Even if you think you look crazy, just say it out loud.

Jennifer: 53:32

Yeah, I, I started doing that with a journal uh, a couple years ago, just at the end of the day, writing down a couple of things that I had done that I was proud of myself for. Oh, that's

CJ: 53:44

freaking awesome.

Jennifer: 53:45

Yeah. I love that. It helps a lot. It helps a lot because we're so quick, all of us to beat, to beat ourselves up. You know, that comes so quickly and so easily. Uh But congratulating ourselves that, that is tougher and yet it's perhaps more important.

CJ: 54:02

I have another question for you and it might feel a little random, but there's just something about the experience you had of journaling, the experience you had of, of, of, of everything that It sounds like Bob had shown you and taught you and how he handles other families. So for, for my, most of my life, since I could remember, I have struggled with mental health depression, anxiety ruminations. Uh, and having grief put on top of that, and then having this health anxiety come about after everything that happened with my wife and then my son. He also ended up having a tumor six months after my wife died. There's this idea that is super popular now and we're kind of touching on it. Gratitude. Have a gratitude practice. It changes your life. You hear these things. And I will naturally want to go against the grain. So I'd be like, fuck your gratitude. Like, you know, you're, you're overblowing this as a panacea. And I got angry about it and just seeing what I call toxic positivity. And I think in that, I've lost the idea that gratitude does have its place. So, I want to ask you and your experience, how can we have A gratitude practice, however small or big that looks like, while still acknowledging that sometimes for periods in life, it's impossible to truly feel grateful.

Jennifer: 55:46

You know what, CJ, I think you bring up another excellent point. I, I am right there with you. I get very tired of the, Oh, the gratitude journal stuff and the, Oh, just find what, you know, the silver lining. And I'm like, I had another, a guy, a widow. Widower say to me, he, he was just like, I mean, what really matters is what you learn from it. And I'm like, you know, that's not what really matters to me. Okay. What really matters to me is that I missed my damn husband, you know, like, just everything is not just a teachable moment. Anyway, I'm with you 100%. It's funny that you bring up the gratitude. What I've been thinking a lot about lately, someday there's some, I'm going to write something about this, but it's not there yet, is, is what I call comparative suffering.

Ashley: 56:45

So

Jennifer: 56:47

as an 18 year old who lost the most important person in my life, right, for many years, I did this whole thing in my head and I still do it. Probably did it earlier today. I'm trying to think about what, but I think I did do it earlier today. Where, when I'm going through something tough, I say to myself, or I used to do this a lot, where I'd be like, Well, if I got through David's death, I can, I can handle this, right? And I, and I think that quickly goes over into, uh, perhaps I guess what I'm mixing two terms here might be considered a toxic gratitude, right? Yeah.

Ashley: 57:33

Yeah.

Jennifer: 57:34

Because I think what happens with comparative suffering and with what, what I'll call toxic gratitude is. It's very quick to a sentence that begins With at least,

CJ: 57:52

uh,

Jennifer: 57:52

and that is always risky. It's okay to do it internally if it helps you, right, get through the moment. Well, at least, right, when we were trying to do the technology stuff and I was like, all of us have been through something, right, way tougher than this. That's right. Let's just call it what it is.

Ashley: 58:11

Yeah.

Jennifer: 58:12

But so easily, and this is where I think. you know, this abundance of, of emphasis on so called gratitude becomes a problem is that turns into an external at least, right? And when you start saying at least to someone else, you're in the wrong. Like there's just, right? Because now you're, you know, it's okay. It's like talk, right? It's like talking about when your spouse talks about your family, right? I can talk about my family. You can't talk about my family, right? But I can give myself an at least. But you don't give me an at least, right, because that's, right, somebody else does that or I do that, God forbid, does somebody else, and I certainly have made that mistake in my life before. Uh, that's just ends up belittling their feelings and, uh, because, and those, and that, you know, we need to do a lot less of that, so, and I, you know, I think our whole, our whole world. With social media and so forth has become just a cesspool of comparative suffering, you know, of external comparative suffering. And it's, it's not healthy and it's not making for good relationships and connections and good feelings about, about ourselves and others.

CJ: 59:35

Yeah, what a, an amazing point. I, I am now adding at least to that mental checklist that I have should is on there. Yeah. Lisa's gonna be on there. Yeah. To help me like. Sure it is bullshit. That's what I say. It is awful. It is. It's bullshit. All it does is give and imply guilt. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. And we say it to ourselves and we say it to others. Amazing. Don't shit on

Jennifer: 59:57

me. I don't. I don't. Try not to shit on myself.

CJ: 1:00:01

Yup. Yup. Yup. That's so good. But I love this idea because I agree. I, one thing I have really kind of. Seeing an experience, especially with social media, is that comparative? And then now having to be in the dating world for some reason, magically, the algorithm starts showing me relationship advice and I'm like, this is so generic with no nuance into what human relationships really look like and it starts making you feel like every little thing is toxic. And it's always the other person's fault and, you know, this comparative of grief of like, well, I've had more grief than you, or this is what I've gone through. So pull yourself up by the bootstraps and get over it. Right. Like we're, even if we're not saying those words, we're conveying these things and just piling on. Just wrong. Right. And it could be used for things that are so beautiful. Like, we can be honest. We can go on the social media and be open and honest and build community. You know, like I've seen that side too, and it's

Ashley: 1:01:24

beautiful,

CJ: 1:01:25

but yes, anyways, that was a tangent, but I love the, at least I didn't know where you're going with that. And that is beautiful. Strikes a chord with me so much, and I almost now need to go think about this because I remember I have vivid memories of conversations, those small little conversations with the kids in passing, or, you know, my wife and your mom died, whatever we can handle this. Right? Like, those are conversations that I am sure that I have had and said to my kids. Right. And I'm not

Jennifer: 1:01:58

saying that they're, that they're a pro, they're not terrible, but recognizing that you're doing it, right, is what, what I, for a long time, I did not recognize. That I was falling back on that a lot and that that's only, that only takes you so far. It really does.

CJ: 1:02:19

And I'm curious what my intention was at the time, right? I mean, I think that's really what it comes down to. What is the intention behind it? So but anyways, I, uh, I don't want to keep you, I know we are, we are getting close to time here. So the thing we love to do at the end and, uh, if you're open to it as we would love to hear. a story, one of your favorite stories about Bob or David or both or your mom, really any story that you want to share about one of, or all of your loved ones, we would love to hear a little bit about them.

Jennifer: 1:02:53

You know, since we just talked about social media, I will share with you that as As difficult and as I think it's important to manage social media and our relationships with it, I will be forever grateful for social media because my brother died in 1983. And so there was a good 25 years, right, that I went on with my life and, and I would meet people and occasionally they would say, well, how many brothers and sisters do you have? And I'd be able to say, I had one. And he died when I was 18 and he was 13.

CJ: 1:03:40

Yeah.

Jennifer: 1:03:41

But nobody except my family knew him. And I will be forever grateful for silly old Facebook because Facebook connected me, reconnected me. With all the kids that David and I went to school with. We, the last school, the high school that I graduated from, went down to fifth grade. And so for the first time ever, David and I were in the same school. And he actually had his accident. on his way to school in front of the school. And my mother worked at the school. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah. So, she came up on the accident on her way to school. And, and I have been able to reconnect with all of these people who knew him and who have remembered him and sometimes have thought about him. Like, they, when they see, find me on campus, I had someone find me the other day. She messaged me and said, I'm sure you don't remember me, but I was there on the day of the accident, you know, and I was with him while the adults went to get help, you know, and I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm eager to talk to her and have a real time communication. So, yeah, I and, and by the same token, you know, that, that doesn't limit it to David. It's just that I lost. 25 years of being with people who knew him as a, as a friend. But it's the same with Bob, you know, I'll, I'll post something, especially doing the work with the books and so forth. You know, I'll post something and there will just be all these people who say, Oh, he was this or he, you know, I remember this about him. It's also, I now split my time. Between Little Rock, Arkansas and Santa Fe, New Mexico. Santa Fe is where I grew up. Little Rock is, I never thought I would end up in Little Rock, Arkansas. Okay. Let's just be crystal clear about this. But I'm here. And I'm pretty much staying because. So people will walk up to me here and say, may I tell you a story about your husband? And I am not giving that up, you know, I am just not giving that up. So yeah, yeah.

Ashley: 1:06:08

I love, I, I totally feel that. It's like slightly different for me, but because my mom died when I was nine. So obviously we didn't have social media then. But now, Getting to share like when I share photos of her, her friends are always there to comment, you know, like my family tells stories and stuff like that, but I think they just give you a different perspective or they tell you kind of a, you know, just something you didn't really know. Or even when I'm posting. Completely like things that aren't even about her. They'll be like, you know, oh your mom used to love to do that or Things like that that you know, you just don't you wouldn't get otherwise

Jennifer: 1:06:45

Right. Sometimes i'll post a pic a picture of myself and people who knew my parents will be like you You are a cross between your mother and father, you know, you're like you you are exactly like, you know What I mean, they'll just be and it's such a great feeling and it's it's it's just that connection that you're so afraid You It is going to get lost because so many people think that because someone has died, you know, that somehow everything ends. And I have, I have this, the Hospice Doctor's Widow came out as a second edition recently and I added some journal entries at the end that were all grief based. And the last, the last page is love is greater than death. You know, I don't, I don't know if you can see that. But,

Ashley: 1:07:34

uh,

Jennifer: 1:07:35

Yeah. Yeah, and it is, right? Oh, I love that. Love is greater than death. Yeah.

CJ: 1:07:40

It is. And it's our ability to hold that grief and that death is what creates more love and abundance in our life. And

Jennifer: 1:07:47

exactly.

CJ: 1:07:48

I, I'm so glad that you guys shared that because I, I do think that we, it can get lost that there's so much beautiful things that come out of this online connection that we have. It's really about what we choose to put into it and where we choose to put our attention. If we focus it in on the things that bring joy and beauty and power into our life because they do exist on the platforms. It's just what are we going to, what are we going to allow in and how are we going to use it as a tool. And those are great examples. And we did that when Ariana was in hospice. Organizing and getting people to reach out to us and being able to communicate. That's how this podcast started. Ashley was like, hey, I see you writing a bunch of stuff because, you know, I, I, I've written about my mental health journey, which naturally meant I was writing about Ariana and our grief journey. And she's like, let's start a podcast is more than that. But it was basically that, like, it's so beautiful and it can be, it doesn't, we don't have to throw everything out because there's downfalls to it.

Jennifer: 1:08:54

And it's not. The other thing is. It's not dark. I, I, people, when I, you know, I get, unfortunately or unfortunately, I, I don't know what, what, it's just how it is, is that when someone gets a bad diagnosis you know, I get a phone call. And people, you know, which is, which I am honored, right? I'll get, I'll get a call. Here's what's happening. What do you think? What should we do? You know, this and that. And, I had my, uh, a few years ago Before her own mother died, uh, my cousin, we were talking about, you know, death and loss and so forth, and I, I don't remember what we were saying, but she said, you know, it's kind of dark. And I said, you know, I, I just don't see it that way. It's not dark. Right? Just, just because the person you love or the people you love haven't died does not make it dark. It's still love. Yes. The constant is love.

CJ: 1:10:00

That's beautiful. We're going to end on that note because that is so true. It is love just because it is. We hide grief. We put it in the shadows and because it's hard doesn't mean it's scary or that it's dark. It is love. That is beautiful. I love it. We appreciate so much for being on the show. I know we had a little bit of issues. But the technology in the beginning, but we powered through. We got here. We got to the end. And thank you for coming on. And also, where can we find this journal?

Jennifer: 1:10:32

Uh, you can get it, you can order it through your, your bookstore or you can get it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. It is called. The Hospice Doctor's Widow, an art journal of caregiving and grief.

Ashley: 1:10:45

Amazing. And it is

Jennifer: 1:10:46

definitely a second edition which Amazon has not figured out how to put the photo of the cover up yet, but they still have the first edition up. Yeah. Yeah. Cause that's how it is. But anyway, uh, so don't buy the first edition, please buy the, buy the second edition if you're, if you're interested in, in the journal for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

CJ: 1:11:15

Thank you for listening to this episode of the day after you can find this podcast and more at our website at www. thedayafter. com. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd really appreciate if you could take a moment to leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.