When Love Finds Its Way Back: Rachel's Story of Loss and Renewal | The Day After Ep. 3

In this deeply moving episode, we sit down with Rachel, whose story of loss and resilience touches on some of life's most challenging moments. After losing her father at 20 and her mother at 34, Rachel faced another devastating blow when her husband died by suicide while she was five months pregnant.

With remarkable candor, Rachel shares how she navigated these profound losses, discussing everything from the complexities of grieving differently from her mother after her father's death, to the unique challenges of pregnancy and early motherhood while processing the loss of her husband. She opens up about dating again, finding unexpected love, and the delicate balance of honoring her late husband's memory while building a new life with her son and second husband.

Throughout our conversation, Rachel offers powerful insights about the nature of grief, healing, and hope. She speaks honestly about the anger, guilt, and confusion that can accompany loss, while also sharing how her son ultimately became her anchor. Her story reminds us that while grief changes us forever, it doesn't have to define our entire story.

Join us in this episode of The Day After, as we discover how love can find its way back into our lives, even after devastating loss.

This episode touches on themes of suicide loss, parental loss, and pregnancy/infant loss. While handled with care and sensitivity, some listeners may find certain topics challenging.

Transcript

Rachel: 0:13

Yeah, so my loss or losses, uh, I lost my dad very young to lung cancer he was 46. I was only 20. I had then lost my mom at 34 breast cancer. She died from breast cancer she was only 57. And then I lost my husband to suicide when I was five months pregnant and he was, he was only 34 and I was 36 at the time. So that's five years ago now.

CJ: 0:42

Yeah, wow. Yeah, very recent. Okay. Yeah, that is a lot of loss. It's significant ages. So, I guess let's kind of dig into the parents first. Yeah. So you said you're, you're, uh, you lost your mom and your dad first? Yeah, it was my dad first. Your dad first, that's

Rachel: 0:58

right. So

CJ: 0:58

you were 20 years old. And at the time, what was your response to that? I mean, you're 20 years old, so kind of starting out life as an adult and trying to figure things out. How did that initial loss impact your life?

Rachel: 1:16

Yeah, it was strange at the time. I think it probably impacted me more as I got older. I mean, you, you might know yourself, Ashley, you were very young when you lost your mum, weren't you? Yeah. And I don't think you'd really appreciate the magnitude of it or especially how sad it was, you know, for the person to die so young until, until you were a little bit older yourself. I think you can sort of just bury it a little bit, I suppose, and just, like you said, CJ, just be trying to get on with your life and, you know, you, you sort of naively think that you've, you know, you've just got to be strong and get on with your life and not really let it affect you too much. But then, yeah, I think if you do that too much, it does come back to bite you in later years, absolutely. So, I don't know if it's the same. In the US, but it's Children's Grief Awareness Week this week, isn't it?

Ashley: 2:06

Yeah, I saw that.

Rachel: 2:08

Yeah, and but yeah, I think 20 years of age, you, you think you're an adult, don't you, and you think you're a grown up, but you're,

CJ: 2:14

you,

Rachel: 2:14

you are still a child, really. You're very, very young, and you're not, you're not very wise, and you haven't got much experience, so, so yeah, I just thought, a few people said to me, oh, you're really strong at the time, and, yeah, it was quite damaging because I didn't, I just thought, wow, I'm strong, I've never been called that before. So yeah, best sort of bury it and, and you know, just continue studying and doing whatever I'm doing at the time. Do you have siblings? I

Ashley: 2:42

don't, no,

CJ: 2:43

no.

Ashley: 2:44

And did you have, like, Uh, close to home, or were you at university at the time?

Rachel: 2:50

And I was, I was at university, but I was, I stayed at home for university, so I still lived with my mom and dad at the time.

Ashley: 2:57

Okay. And, and how, how did your mom's, like, grief and how she kind of grieved impact you? We, we

Rachel: 3:05

grieved totally differently, which is for obvious reasons, obviously the relationship and the age thing. But yeah obviously sadly learned myself in later years about how, you know, just how losing your husband just affects every single little part of your life.

Ashley: 3:22

But

Rachel: 3:22

yeah, I was sort of, you know, thinking, well, I'm being strong and I'm getting on, getting on with my life where my mum was just, you know, she was in such a dark place. She was struggling to get out of bed a lot of days. And then, yeah, I think it did conflict a lot of the time, and I guess that can be quite common too, because you're both grieving the same person, but in completely different ways.

CJ: 3:46

Yeah.

Rachel: 3:47

And especially at that age, but, but yeah, it was, yeah, quite a tricky time for me and my mum that we got through it and, and then, you know, we had a great relationship, but, but yeah, that sort of conflict and grief was a bit of a struggle some days.

CJ: 4:01

Yeah, I had that experience with my kids when I lost my wife. really kind of went from a really tight knit group to almost separating. I mean, they were young, they were, they were pretty young when, when she passed and it took Some years for, for us to kind of start to come back together. It's almost like we all went off and grieved on our own and we would come together every once in a while. But there was a point when it felt like, Oh, we're, we're, we're now the family. We're now a family of four. As opposed to the family of five that we were and we had to figure kind of that dynamic out.

Ashley: 4:40

But

CJ: 4:41

again, you know, I know that ebbs and flows and changes since they're now teenagers and all that shifts. But I want to talk a little bit about you mentioned that it felt like it affected you more as you, you got older. And then I know 34 your mom passed. So when, You, so I want to go back to that. But the first question I have is when you lost your husband, was there a different perspective that you had on what your mom went through?

Rachel: 5:15

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it was, it was one of the things I just, obviously like, uh, you know, when something that bad happens, you need your mom, but I really wanted to just say sorry to her about not understanding it for her. I think that is really sad, like I said earlier, you just, you don't appreciate, sometimes when you're really young, you don't really appreciate that, you know, your parents are human beings the same as you do, you think that they're older and yeah, sometimes, yeah, you don't appreciate their life experiences until you start having them yourself. And then, yeah, when they're not around anymore to help you through them or to just say, wow, I'm really sorry about what you went through back there. It's difficult. It's difficult. But another thing that was sort of, yeah, that, that it taught me is my mum actually met a new partner a year after my dad died and I, I at the time I found that really difficult because yeah, it's, it's like, like your dad's being replaced even though it's not that, but that kind of gave me hope after I lost my husband because. I saw my mum find happiness again and it was one of the first things I thought that, you know, she went through this and, and she was okay again and I know I will be too. And coincidentally, I met someone a year after my husband died as well, so. Oh wow. But yeah, and it kind of gave me, stopped me from feeling so guilty about doing that as well. Because, yeah, you know, moving, moving forward and meeting someone else after you'd been widowed is. It's tough terrain and there's a lot of judgments, so sort of knowing that I already would have had my mum's blessing in it was, you know, a big comfort.

CJ: 6:56

That's beautiful. Yeah, it's been my, my wife put a lot of emphasis and conversations into helping me be okay with moving forward after she died, because we knew that she was going to die. She had cancer, but even with all of that, with all of that support and all the support from the family, it's just been such a struggle. I'm four years into this, I've had multiple relationships and it just feels like for me because I was with my wife since we were 18 years old, I realized I'm like, I really don't even know how to date. And there's just been like so much of this learning experience, not only not knowing how to date as an adult, but not knowing how to date in this world that we live in now, which it's so different and there's just been so many like. Situations that I find myself in thought patterns that I have that I've had to, I've had to learn and kind of heal from, you know, and feeling like realizing like, Oh, I, I only know how to be a husband. So I've had to learn like, Oh, right now I gotta figure out how to be a boyfriend, like, not a husband, I'm a boyfriend, like, there's just so many of these things that you just never think of that come up. But anyway, I think it's. It's amazing. It's encouraging to me to hear folks like you who have been able to find somebody that they they want to be with long term again. But going back to this idea that the the death of your father, you almost Kind of like went into this, like, well, I'm strong, I'm good. When did that start to break down for you?

Rachel: 8:40

You know what? I think it was, it was probably when my mum got sick. Uh. Yeah. I mean, I always missed him and, and we were always very close. But I sort of always bottled it up and it would probably, when I was younger, only really come out when I'd had a drink or something really that, you know, your emotions just spill out, which you've been covering up. And it was just a really unhealthy place to be. But yeah, it was when my mum got sick, I don't know, it was kind of, you know, the anticipatory grief I was feeling for losing her brought that back, and I think that's really common that I can do that.

CJ: 9:16

What was your reaction to it? What did you do to kind of deal with what was coming up?

Rachel: 9:23

With my mum.

CJ: 9:24

Yeah.

Rachel: 9:25

Yeah. I don't know. I can't, I can't really even remember. It was, you know, we were just, I would just try to make the most of all the time that we had together. So she was diagnosed with breast cancer and then she got the all clear and she got to sort of ring the bell to signal the end of the treatment and So there was a lot of hope during those first parts, like, we knew the treatment could work, and, you know, she had she had one of her breasts removed, lost all her hair, and all, you know, all the horrible stuff that comes with chemotherapy, which, which is just awful, isn't it? You just think, like As a woman, like, your breasts and your hair are just such an integral part of being a woman, and to lose them and watch someone go through that, I'm sure, I'm sure you know yourself, it's just, it just breaks your heart, doesn't it? But yeah, I just loved her as much as I could, and I think as well because I was, I didn't really get too involved with my dad's appointments and treatments and things, I think I've been quite shielded from it. But I just made such a big conscious to know absolutely everything that was going on to be at every doctor's appointment and to just know, you know, know everything about it and do everything I could to support her. But then, uh, you know, her cancer did come back and got into her lymph nodes and it was that sort of day where it was like, The, the treatment isn't going to do anything, no, how long have we got left conversations. So, yeah, all you can do is just try and make as many memories as you can.

CJ: 10:54

That's, that's what my wife and I did. So she had breast cancer as well. And we actually had a guest on last night who referred to, well, the time when you know that it's, It's terminal and they referred to it as precious time where like you want to focus on the love and the connection and the time left as opposed to the appointments and what's happening and all of that and it really struck me last night as this woman was describing it, but but yeah, I, I, I remember you talked about ringing the bell, it's kind of a small detail but I remember like, my wife getting like, so upset at hearing people ringing the bell, because for her there was no bell to ring, like, she's gonna be on treatment until she dies, and I'm, I'm kinda interested in that because I thought that was just a local thing, I didn't know that this was all over the place. Yeah,

Rachel: 11:56

I know, I wasn't sure if you were gonna know what I meant then. Yeah.

CJ: 11:59

Yeah. Haha. But I didn't realize that, like, it kind of took me back, that I was like, oh, this is also in the UK, okay, that's, that's pretty wild. And I'm just curious, like, what other people feel about that, like, is this a thing that is, is kind to, to everybody in there, and does it help, and stuff like

Rachel: 12:17

that. I remember it was it was just before Christmas, it was, it was probably a month from today, actually. It was just before Christmas and we had Christmas jumpers on and stuff, and I, like, I was so happy, but I look around the waiting room and I felt so guilty, but the lovely thing about it was that everyone in that waiting room clapped anyway, and it's just quite a beautiful moment, isn't it, because there's some people in there who were in your position who knew that, you know, it was, there wasn't going to be any ringing of the bell, but. You know, it's, it's such a nice tribute to the human spirit that people would still clap for that other person regardless.

CJ: 12:53

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's amazing. The, the things, the conversations my wife would have, the things that she did, knowing that she was gonna die, I still to this day don't know how she did them. I just think there's something that happens to us, like you said, that human spirit that overcomes even facing death, uh, and does incredible things, and it's something I try to hold on to, knowing, like, when my time comes that hopefully I can be half the person that she was facing death. Should I know ahead of time that it's coming? But the, the other question that I had was, so your mom died at when you were 34, you said, right? Yes, yeah. And then, yeah, so, your husband, was he, you guys were together then, when your mom passed? Yeah,

Rachel: 13:43

so we'd actually been together, I think we'd been together about eight, nine years, when my mom died. But we were actually planning a wedding, so my mum died in the October, but she's, she'd been given six to nine months in the September and we had the wedding booked for the February the next year, which was five months from when she got that prognosis. But she only, she only made it another month. Holy shit. But yeah. I know, we were all like, it was like her goal to, to be at the wedding, like. We went dress shopping and she got her outfit and everything like that and yeah, it was, it was so hard to then go on and, and carry on planning that wedding without her there. But yeah, one thing I am a tiny bit grateful for that was that even though she didn't make it to the day, we got to make those memories like dress shopping and. And I just, I do take comfort in the fact of knowing that, you know, when, when she died, she left me in a place where she knew I was about to get married, and I was happy and excited for that. So, yeah, it was, it was really sad. And, and sometimes I might, as much as I wanted her there when my husband later died, sometimes I'm just so happy that she was spared, having to see me go through that.

CJ: 15:00

Yeah, I could see that. Where did you find support then, after your husband passed?

Rachel: 15:06

Mainly friends. Yeah, friends. I've got an auntie as well, my mum's sister. And she, she was amazing because it was COVID not long after he died. So me and, me and the baby stayed with her for about six months. It was only meant to be a couple of weeks, but as we know, COVID dragged on longer than, than we thought. But yeah, so she was the, you know, the biggest support. But mainly friends. I've got such a good family. Good group of friends and good network. Because yeah, it was difficult without any siblings as well. One of the worst turns was not long after I was had the baby. Oh no, sorry, I was pregnant and I went for an appointment. It was to find out the baby's sex. And I got to the counter of the clinic and I had to fill in the forms as you do. And one of the questions was next of kin. Didn't have a clue. No parents. No husband and no siblings.

CJ: 16:00

Yes, it really floored me. It's a lot to have a new life coming in and having lost your person and also having your parents there to help support you in that. In your grief and in your journey, I mean, it's still, I consider it's still pretty early, but what has this kind of journey for you looked like? You said it's been five years since your husband passed.

Rachel: 16:28

Yeah, five years. I mean, yeah, at first it was, it was just such a shock. Like, we'd only been married 18 months, we had a baby on the way, and the baby was planned. So, you know, we just bought a new house. I literally thought that I had it all, had, you know, had everything I'd ever wanted. And also, you know, after my dad and my mum, I thought, you know, this is, this is a happy ending kind of thing after everything. Yeah. And then yeah, but like the thought of how do I get another happy ending after that or, you know, is this just it now or am I just doomed? But yeah, that, that knock on the door, so he'd actually been away for a week with work and he'd been on a work night out on Friday. And I was just waiting for him to go home as normal, like we both worked away a lot. And then I was really worried all day because he wasn't answering his phone and no one could get hold of him. And then the door knocked about half hour in the afternoon and it was the police. Just, yeah, I remember them just saying he's been found deceased in his hotel room. But it took took a couple of hours before we actually found out how, how he had died as well. Because it was in a different city, so they didn't know. Yeah, and then, you know, we found out later on that he'd took his own life, died by suicide. And it was, it was just the biggest shock in the world. Yeah, I mean, he'd, he'd had a few mental health issues, but it was years ago as well, and just, there was no clues at all, really. It was just such a shock,

CJ: 17:54

and. It's, it's absolutely devastating. So, from the experience that I had, When I lost my wife was and I've heard other people say this too, that I, I felt like I died with her. I feel like there was just a huge part of me that did and in post, post losing her, it feels like it's just been this journey of rediscovering who I am. What is my identity? What does life look like? Even down to like, what are the things that I like? Did I like that show? Because her and I watched it and I just liked being with her. Like, all these things became this, this, like, bittersweet Thing of like, well, I no longer get to do the things that I used to do because she's not here and I want to do them with her. And then having to like sort through that, that identity. Is that something that you experienced as well?

Rachel: 18:56

Oh yeah, absolutely. That was one of the biggest things for me. And like music is just always been such a big part of my life and, and it was both of us. And I just, I couldn't listen to any songs that we both liked, but they were songs that I'd liked before, but then we'd liked them together. And I was like, well, this has got to change my taste in music now, because I can't, can't listen to anything. But some, yeah, but some people actually take comfort in it, don't they, in listening to music that reminds them of their loved ones, but I, yeah, I just wasn't that way at all. And, and like places, like favorite places that I've been to, it's like, I'm just never going to be able to go to them anymore. It's like you say, you're just so, you're not an, you know, a me or an I anymore, are you? You're an us. And yeah, it was interesting what you said before, CJ, about when you think how to become a boyfriend again, because you settle down, don't you? And you become, you know, a husband or a wife and you become a different version of you. And you've got to sort of like rewind a few years and try and become this like. Exciting young person when

CJ: 20:03

you feel far from

Rachel: 20:04

that. Yeah. I found online dating so difficult as well because

CJ: 20:11

It's so hard. I

Rachel: 20:12

know. It was never a thing. I'd never done it before. And sort of going through my photographs and being like You know, I can't, all of these photographs where I look like an interesting person are taken on trips with, with my husband, like, is that, is that normal? Is that okay to do that? And then, and then putting, whether you should put whether, whether you're a widow or not. Is that going to scare people away? You're going to come with all these, I hate the word baggage, but, it's what you think. It's alright.

CJ: 20:41

Yeah, I put it in, like, sometimes I'll be like, well, maybe I'll just put it right on my profile that I'm a widow. Maybe I won't. Things like that.

Ashley: 20:48

I use dating apps, obviously not as a widow, kind of very, not a lot, because I did not like them. And I actually, uh, met my fiancé in person through a mutual friend, so. That's rare these days. Like, I, I do, yeah, I know, I do empathize, or like, you know, I do understand the, uh, the hatred, really, of dating apps from that perspective, but I can't even, I mean, like, I really can't imagine. Going back on them and especially after, like you said, just like losing your loved one and then like having that as part of your story and it's like, is that a bit much on the, on the first message? No. Hey, what brings you here?

Rachel: 21:35

I also had a baby as well. So I had an eight month old baby as well at the time. So, and yeah, I was, I was living at my auntie's. It was like, we were just sort of easing out of the first lockdown. Yeah, I was like, oh, I'm such an unattractive prosper. I don't know but yeah, it was, yeah, it was hard, but also you, you do get to a point where, you know, and, and for me, I wasn't actually looking for a new relationship straight away. I just wanted, just wanted to feel like a woman again, really, and just to be taken out for a meal or given a compliment, I had been like doing a lot of exercise and I was feeling like myself again, sort of physically and almost mentally after the baby and everything. And so. You know, I wanted, yeah, just a bit of attention, isn't it, if we're being honest, that's why you do it. You just want a little bit of fun.

Ashley: 22:25

And your son or daughter is, like, four or five now? Yeah, he's four. He turns

Rachel: 22:30

five soon. He's just started school. We had his first parent's evening tonight, so he's doing really well.

Ashley: 22:37

Oh, that's so good. Does he, does he, like, ask about his dad or know about his dad or how, like, I bet that is kind of a difficult,

Rachel: 22:46

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. A difficult thing to navigate. Yeah, I've told him little bits. So yeah, this is what I'll tell you about. My new, new husbands as well. So, the, the first foray into the dating app actually turned out really well and unexpectedly well my new husband now, Warren one of the first people that I spoke to, and I was just opening up front about everything. And he was so understanding, he'd not long lost his mom as well. And we just hit it off and yeah, I thought I was going to have to make a lot of compromises. Was my situation and I didn't think I could be best friends for the partner again, but We were immediately kind of thing and yet those four, four years later, we just got married a couple of months ago in Ibiza.

CJ: 23:34

Oh my gosh, congratulations. Yeah, it's

Rachel: 23:37

uh, yeah.

CJ: 23:39

That's so encouraging. I, sometimes I feel so hopeful and other times I feel like, I don't, I don't know, I, I, I don't know like what, I don't know what this whole journey with dating has been. So like, I'm very, very Public with my life, my dating life. I haven't been I think largely because it involves someone else and I'm okay sharing my stuff, but like, I'm not going to share other people's stuff. So, but it's been such a journey for me. And, and I felt like I wasn't the same thing. Like I wasn't looking to date again, but it happened really early, like right away circumstances and it just kind of happened. And, you know, yeah. People have been very patient, very kind, but I kind of reflect back on the past four years and I just think like, sometimes I get so discouraged of like, why is it, I don't know how to describe it, like, it's such a thing to lose our person, and I also realize that if I end up finding somebody that I stay with, Or get married again. I will be with that person longer than I was with my wife, and I was with my wife for almost 18 years. Wow. Which is not an insignificant amount of time. And I, and I want to hold on and to believe that I will have a best friend, that kind of love again. Yeah. You know, different. It's gonna be different. But I like see the things that I struggle and I see like striking out after striking out after striking out just like, you know, things just don't work and I'm just like, what the fuck's going on? Like that hope waivers back and forth. But then like I hear stories and we've heard so many stories of people who have, who have found that again. And, and I think it's just the most beautiful thing.

Rachel: 25:39

Yeah. Your bars just set very high, isn't it?

CJ: 25:42

Yeah.

Rachel: 25:43

Which is good. I'm sure. Yeah. What you deserve as well. So I think you just don you don't, yeah. It, it doesn't make you weaker losing new person. And I think that's what you worried about coming across, but I don't, I don't think, I think you would. You wouldn't settle for any less than, you know, no compromises and someone who treats you amazingly well.

CJ: 26:06

Yeah.

Rachel: 26:06

After losing your person because you, you, you really understand what true love is. And you understand even more so what you stand to lose by loving someone and You know, I think you know the meaning of love a lot more, so, you know, you're not gonna settle for some, you know, half baked love that isn't as special and super as the one that you've had before and that's, it is difficult to find, but it is possible.

CJ: 26:36

Yeah, I think it's like learning, learning to love in the most dire of circumstances. Yeah. And learning to hold on to that love after they're gone. And knowing that it's, it's always going to be there.

Rachel: 26:52

Yeah, sorry Ashley, I think you were saying about, so I have, we have started telling my little boy, but we say he used to have another daddy and he's not here anymore and he knows that he died. But that's, that's all he knows up to now.

Ashley: 27:05

Yeah.

Rachel: 27:06

It's a difficult one because I'm obviously going to have to tell him more as he grows up and it's. It's something I worry about constantly because, you know, with all the mental health stuff around it as well, I worry about, you know, my little boy's mental health and don't want him to ever feel like he was abandoned or anything like that. Yeah, I guess you've just got to sort by with it, haven't you, and just be sensitive and as appropriate to his age as you can with how you talk to him.

Ashley: 27:32

Yeah, absolutely. Nowadays, I kind of hope that there's things like, things like, I think, like Winston's voice for something is something in the UK. But things out there that can kind of either introduce him to others who experience that because as sad as it is, I'm sure that there are others, you know, that had, that are in a similar situation and even for you to have someone to speak to that's gone through that and you know, shared with more and more as, as the child gets older because, I mean, it really is, it's. No matter, no matter how an individual passes before a child is born, I feel like that's really hard because there's like half of your identity that you haven't been able to get to know. Yeah, I'm

Rachel: 28:15

still very much in touch with his family and then my little brother's grandparents. So he's always going to have that part of his life with him.

Ashley: 28:24

Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing in itself, because sometimes that doesn't happen either.

CJ: 28:30

Yeah, you lose that, that family connection almost organically. So you were mentioning, uh, him feeling abandoned, and I know that my wife didn't have a choice to die. She didn't want cancer, she would have stayed if she could. But I, I had the question posed to me in therapy just recently, actually, within the past couple months of the possibility that regardless of how she died, that there still is abandonment in that she left and I'm here with the kids and I have to raise them on my own. And it made me angry. It made me angry to have to realize that because it feels Icky, for lack of a better word, to be like, fuck her for leaving me. But what I've learned is, or what I'm learning is that all of this anxiety and sadness that I feel is masking anger and I have, yeah, yeah, it's, and I've just like, I've held it down for four years and. Was in this pursuit of healing and almost to the point of denying that anger, afraid of it because I don't know what it is. And we started doing some exercises like somatic exercises. And I got right to the point where it was like right at my throat and it was like gonna come out and I couldn't do it. I couldn't let it release because I realized that by letting that release. It's going to bring up all that pain again from like those first moments in those first months and year after losing her. And I'm curious, like if any of that resonates with you, if you've had that experience when losing him, especially in the way that you did, what are some of those thoughts that you've had around it?

Rachel: 30:41

Yeah. I think that's one of the like. You know, and yeah, it's interesting to hear that you get that, you know, when someone's just died, like, you know, from cancer or something as well, because it is, yeah, I think it's always quite, quite sort of discussed as quite specific to losing to someone by, losing someone by suicide, to be angry at them and to feel abandoned. And I think it's quite obvious in that situation why, but yeah, the rage. It was horrible and I've, I've, yeah, it's probably only sort of the past year or two where I've really started talking about it a lot more and sharing my story like this is, is when it's gone. Yeah, I spent a lot of time angry and especially being pregnant as well, like it was planned. And, and just thinking, you know, I, I never wanted to do this on my own. I never wanted to be a single mum you know, we wouldn't, I wouldn't have done that. Yeah and they just, yeah, just leave, left, left with so much mess and stuff to sort out. And, yeah, but then, yeah, it's just, yeah, it's one of the most complicated things of all. And you're all so angry, like, why, why didn't you just talk to me about it? You know, we could have, could have worked through it. Yeah. Yeah, it is, it's really difficult and, but then it's hard, isn't it, as well, because everybody is, you know, so sad and quite rightly so sad about it and sometimes when someone dies it can almost become a bit sainted, can't they, and it's, it's difficult to express an anger towards them. Yeah.

CJ: 32:16

Yeah.

Rachel: 32:17

Yeah, you know, you get. People come and, you know, people that you don't really know, like, telling you that he was the best person in the world and you're just like, he's left me with a baby on my own with all this to deal with, to go through the rest of my life alone. Yeah. But yeah, that's, it's totally natural, isn't it? I think we all know, like Any emotion that comes up in grief is completely natural and you're allowed to feel it. Absolutely.

Ashley: 32:42

No, no feeling is wrong. It's just about feeling it and working through what, you know, what that means for you or, you know, how you can, I say better, but it just means like feel, I don't know, content about it, I guess, in a way. Yeah, it's if you just keep bottling. Get to a feel a place of, yeah, exactly. And then that's when you get into, I think, just. It doesn't, it doesn't it doesn't impact anyone else but you when you let that happen, you know, when you bottle it up, don't talk about it cause you're the one that feels angry and other people don't get, you know, don't understand why you're feeling whatever way you are feeling. But I, I know it's not, I feel like when you say like, I can't imagine it's like, it's, that's a shitty thing to say in this case, but I really, like, I really. I, I feel like I would be so angry, like, I would, like, I, I really feel like I'd have to like go and punch some things or break some glass for like a very long time because like it just would, I, yeah, I just couldn't, I, I couldn't really comprehend like that. And like you said, like, you know, we talked about this and this is what we, or what we, I thought we wanted and this is what I wanted with you. Like there would, I would just take me a while to get. Yeah, took a long time. I'm, I'm just like impressed. I'm so impressed with your ability to do that. Yeah. Honestly.

Rachel: 34:08

Yeah. Cause then you feel the anger, but then you feel guilty about it too, because you just think where must he have been in his head to have gone to that place. Yeah. And you know, to, he knew what he was leaving me with and, but to still be that dog in your head that you just couldn't, couldn't live anyway.

Ashley: 34:28

Yeah. Wow. To think that you. To think you would be better off, you know, like you got to believe that he was like, she'll be better off without me. I think we've talked about we've had a handful of guests that have dealt with losing a loved one to suicide. And it feels like similar, like themes come up where there's like that, like slight guilt, but then you're like this, like. just empathy for them and where they were in that moment and how they were feeling. And then of course just wanting to fix it and wishing like they could have, they could have felt like they could have said something so that you could fix it. Yeah, just

Rachel: 35:00

going back through every conversation that you can ever remember, looking for clues.

Ashley: 35:05

Yeah.

Rachel: 35:06

Yeah. Yeah.

CJ: 35:07

I was going to ask if you, if you had that, cause as I was listening to you guys talk, I just felt a wave of like, I would feel so guilty because I, I mean, I feel guilty and I've like ruminated on conversations and actions that I took with Ariana but also being on the other side of, of that where I had really bad depression. And those suicidal ideations, and for me, it was very much like what you were saying, Ashley, it was, if I'm gone, my family will be better. I won't, I won't be a burden anymore, and, and I'm holding them back, is really what the thoughts were. Yeah, I can't imagine holding, having to hold guilt and anger with something as strong as that.

Ashley: 35:57

I feel like I don't have the, the right. Words to, to say, I to say I don't have the right words. Mm. It's, that's it's a lot of feelings I

Rachel: 36:07

would be feeling. Yeah. Yeah. And for me it was COVID not long after he died, and that was just such a blessing for me. I know it was such a hard time for a lot of people. Mm-hmm But yeah, I was. It was just such a relief for me to be, it felt like the rest of the world stopped as well. So I didn't have to be out, uh, baby groups and, you know, doing all the normal stuff you do. Yeah. And I just walked for miles and made a playlist of like motivational songs and just walked up and down the prom by, by where I was living. And yeah, just for hours every day with the baby in the prom and that space to just think and be. And just go through all of those emotions was so helpful. And I don't, I don't really think you, you get that too much, do you, really? You have to, you get so encouraged to get back into life and,

CJ: 37:00

you

Rachel: 37:00

know, socialize and. And which is good, it's good to have a mix of it, but without any of that pressure. It was so helpful. It was, yeah, it was life saving probably at times.

CJ: 37:11

Yeah, yeah. For us so my wife died during COVID, so it was a blessing on the other end of the spectrum where We were, me, the kids and her, we were forced to be home and we got to spend that last nine months of, of her life together every day other than the stress of COVID. But we got to be together and but it made it hard because I couldn't go into the hospitals with her. I couldn't, and I'm just sitting in the car waiting or the fear that, you know, it would take her out. Because she was so compromised. That must have been so scary. But, it, the space that you gave yourself to kind of work through these emotions. I feel whether it's your demeanor or not, you feel very solid in the experiences that you've had and coming out of them. It's very reassuring and calming and I wanted to acknowledge that and also ask like what else have you, what else have you, have you done? Like what was that journey like or is this just who you are? I mean, you've had so much loss at such significant times. To be so calm about it and so thoughtful in reflection. I'm just curious what that journey looked like for you.

Rachel: 38:30

Yeah, it was I had a, I had a little bit of counselling after my husband died, but I had it after my mum and it was okay. But I had it after my husband and it just didn't even scratch the surface. It was I just felt like she couldn't relate whatsoever but the biggest things I found solace in sort of support groups, so there was one called Survivors of Bereavement by Suicide, I went to a couple of those which was helpful, but the main thing was I met a couple of girls online we've got a site here called Widows and Young and one of them I'd lost a husband when she, yeah, a husband when she was pregnant, but she'd had a baby. And then another girl messaged me and she was pregnant and her husband had just died the same way. Just knowing that there were other people out there. Yep. And we've all supported each other through it. That was amazing, but I just sort of lapped up everything I could find on, on the internet of stories of survivors and then, you know, just people with brief pages, read books. And I found like the, the books with like a little bit of humor in and things really helped. Like, there's one called the hot young widow is called.

CJ: 39:46

Yes, I was a part of it before it shut down.

Rachel: 39:48

Were you? But yeah, that, yeah, that's, I I lost her. I still do, but yes, actually just talking about all the annoying things people do and say, but she was, yeah. It was sort of like really black humor in it, but it helped. Mm-hmm It really helps We like that. Yeah. We like that here. Sometimes just think you've just got a think of, this is just ridiculous and just laugh it up. Me,

CJ: 40:12

I do a

Rachel: 40:12

lot of

CJ: 40:13

laughing and crying, but yeah, we have very dark humor in my household, me and the kids. And it's always jarring if I'm dating somebody too, like the jokes that me and my kids say once they're around, I'm like, you're going to have to get used to this. So you're not going to be able to survive, but yeah, that's, that's, that's amazing. And what has it been like raising your son? And having to, well, for a good while to have to raise him on your own.

Rachel: 40:43

To be honest, I was, again, a blessing of COVID, I was quite fortunate in that I was staying with my auntie, my mom's sister, for a good chunk of him being a tiny baby. So the first sort of, sort of, it was only about three or four months I was on my own, but that was in the early days and people were always with me. Friends would always be staying. There wasn't that much time that I was on my own really. And I think because you are so vulnerable and Was that good or bad? Mainly good, but I did want to have some space sometimes. I think people, yeah. Just because of the whole situation and being pregnant or having a new baby, everyone was just terrified to leave me on my own. Which is understandable. Yeah, so I could see that. I had a c section as well, so I couldn't really do anything for myself for the first six weeks. So I

Ashley: 41:32

couldn't really be left on my own that much. Yeah. Well, that's amazing that you had people to be there, but I can also see you needing like five, like four days to be by yourself. It's like, okay, everyone, you can't come Tuesday and Thursday. Yeah. You want to, at

Rachel: 41:50

some point, just be like, can I do this on my own? What's it going to feel like? So yeah, eventually I did get a few of those days, but then we went into lockdown. So I moved in with my auntie for six months. Took Emma's, yeah, it was great. It was lovely all the time actually. And then I met, I met Warren, my new husband. So, so yeah, I didn't really have that much time on, as a single mom per se, on my own. But yeah, that must be so difficult as well. Being a single parent, you haven't, you know, having that responsibility and. You know, worrying about always making sure that you're alert and you must, you must never be able to like fully relax.

CJ: 42:33

Yeah, I, I would, I was never attached to my phone until my wife died and it was always just like I had a very good relationship with it and it was always about just kind of being here being present and now it's next to me all the time because. The kids might have to get in contact with me, you know? Uh, yeah, I see. Yeah. So I just felt like I could never, I can't disconnect cause there's nobody else for them to go to. I mean, you know, it's last night we were doing a recording and we finished. I had 14 messages from one of my kids of like, you need to do this. You need to do this. I need you right now. It's an emergency. Like. It's just, it's just endless and the older they get the more it is, right? Like now I have three teenagers or near, near teenagers and it's, it's always something and it's, it's always trying to give them rides, make sure they have food, like just everything that goes with it. But for me, I had the contrast of. I had two people, or we had two parents, and then we didn't I didn't go into this as a single dad. I, I, I had my wife, and for me, in the early first couple years, it was, I'm going to be two parents. I don't care. I'm going to be two parents. And if, and if I don't, then I failed. Obviously I can't be two parents and I tried and I burned out. I mean, I was sleeping two to four hours a night for over a year. Trying to do everything, trying to be everything to them and try to heal my own grief. And it was, it's just, I don't know, arrogance. I don't know what it was, the need to feel like I'm enough, you know, the constant struggle of like, am I good enough? Am I good enough for my kids? So, but yeah, so I think it's, it's, it's an interesting thought experiment for me to think about going into this. being a single dad for the first time. I have a friend who lost his wife as she was giving birth. Oh wow. So he was only ever a single dad and his son's birthday is his wife's death anniversary. And I'm just like, how old is the little boy?

Ashley: 44:55

Uh,

CJ: 44:55

how old is he? He, I believe, is a year now. Yeah, this was, this was recent. That's

Rachel: 45:01

so tough for him to find out, isn't it?

CJ: 45:03

Yeah. Yeah. And it's So I guess the, the, the last question I would have for you is do you feel like having your boy helped or did it make things harder? So like, it's something that people, Oh, you're so lucky you have your kids, right. Or, or the opposite. Like there's always two camps. It's so good. You have your kids or it's so hard, but it's like. For a while, I was like, no, this fucking sucks. I wish that they weren't here because I can't take care of them, and I'm dealing with this, and I don't want them to live a life without their mom. But then there are moments, and I think more now as I get space and distance around my grief where I'm like, no, I do think that they helped me because they're the ones that I got out of, out of bed for. And then like, so much so that I didn't even realize I was depressed. And I know that sounds really fucking absurd, but to me, literally the past four years, I'm like, Oh, I'm just really anxious. I have health anxiety because everything my wife went through, and then my son had a tumor after she died and all this stuff. And I'm like, I'm just anxious. I'm not sad or depressed, I should say rather because depression is not sadness. And I think that because I had to be everything for them. It's forced me to mask the symptoms of depression because I think given to my own vices, I would probably just stay in bed all the time and couldn't deal. But anyway, so I guess like it's been this like journey for me of have the kids helped me or have they not. And I'm curious, like, how you feel about that with your son.

Rachel: 46:49

Yeah, exactly the same. So, I mean, at first, being pregnant was the worst thing about it for me. Because I felt so trapped. I thought, you know, I can't, I can't just like You know, I'm always going to be, be sort of, you know, stuck with, with the time and all that trauma and stuff. And like at the time, all I wanted to do really was just be like, right, I'm going to go and get a flight to Bali or something. I'm just going to find myself and just, you know, I've got no, no sort of close family anymore. So I could just go and do whatever I wanted. But I was like, no, I'm stuck here, I can't have a drink, I can't do anything. And people were always saying to me, Oh, like, you need to stay strong for the baby. You need to stay calm for the baby. And you're like, why are you putting that pressure on me? I'm sure you've had that said to you about your children as well. But now looking back, like it, it's probably saved my life, my little boy, because you know, I don't know. I would have been very reckless with, you know, drinking or, you know, I don't think I would have looked after my health whatsoever at that time because, you know, I kind of felt like, I would have felt like I had nothing to lose, really.

Ashley: 48:01

Mm

Rachel: 48:02

hmm. But yeah, I had to, I had to keep eating, I had to keep sleeping, I had to look after myself and take care, take care of the baby. But, yeah, I don't, don't know what could have happened. No, he had. I didn't really consider suicide myself, totally, but it did cross my mind as in, I just need to stop feeling this way, but I was like, well, you know, I'm not going to do that to my son as well, and I wouldn't have done it to. Any of my family after experiencing how bad it feels, but, but still, you don't know if I, you know, I've either had a few too many drinks and had that thought, or could it have been a different scenario? Who knows? But, but yeah, one day I'm, I'm gonna get, you know, amongst all the bad things I have to tell him, I'm gonna tell him that he saved my life one day and it's gonna be a lovely thing to tell him. So yeah, I think, yeah yeah, he reminds me of his, you know, his biological dad and a lot of things and I used to find that difficult, but now it brings me so much joy, yes. You know, it was a great person.

CJ: 49:04

Yeah, that's how my daughter is. She reminds me so much of my wife. It's crazy, and she's 16 now, and I mean, the looks she gives me, the like, like, things that just, you know, Ashley, like, she's so much like Ariana. It's crazy, and like, The way, the way she says things to me, the way she acts, I'm like, this is insane. It's like a spinning image, like almost have to do a double take sometimes, which is kind of like throws me a little bit. But but yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. I think it's, I think it can be a very vulnerable thing for parents to, to talk about the kind of that relationship that you end up having to being a parent in that grief. And I. I really want to find good language for us to talk with those who are going through those heavy, heavy days of grief with their children, as opposed to, Oh, they're going to save your life or. Like, these things that don't help in the moment, right, like regardless if it's true or not, they, they don't help and we need to, like, acknowledge the situation and just acknowledge of some of those thoughts and feelings that we might have and, and let it be what it needs to be.

Rachel: 50:24

Yeah. Yeah. Like, at least is one of the worst things people say, isn't it? Hmm.

CJ: 50:31

Interesting you say that. That came up last night. Oh, really? In, in our recording where. What did she say, Ashley? So at least is, it always brings judgment to us and to others, right? I think that's what she was saying.

Ashley: 50:44

Yeah. At least and should. Are no no words. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel: 50:48

Mine was always, at least you have the baby. But when I was having those feelings of being, being trapped, it's like, it's, yeah, it sounds on paper like, you know, it makes it worse, doesn't it? But in the end, it didn't.

CJ: 51:00

Yeah,

Rachel: 51:01

I've heard of people, you know, who experienced like baby loss and, but they've got other children and someone will say to them, at least you've got your other child to see. Can you say that? Yes. That's horrendous.

CJ: 51:12

Yep, at least you're young.

Ashley: 51:14

I think as people that just don't know what to say and you're like, if you just said nothing, it would be better.

Rachel: 51:21

Just say, I'm sorry.

Ashley: 51:23

Yeah. Yeah. Just be like, exactly. In that case, I'm happy with you saying I'm sorry. Yeah. Like, like, I get it. I mean, you didn't kill them, but I don't know why you're sorry, but. It's better than being like, at least you have your dad. Like, okay, great. Yeah. I want both my fucking parents, bro.

CJ: 51:41

Yeah, it's so bizarre and, and like, I think a beautiful example of how we react to these things is like what you were saying earlier, Ashley, of like. Just say, I don't know what to say. That statement, to me, if somebody came up to me and was like, Hey man, I just don't know what to say. That makes me feel seen. Yeah, absolutely. And that makes me feel cared for. More than any type of language that anybody could use. That's it. Yep. And that's, cause that's the truth.

Rachel: 52:11

Yeah, you don't have to make it better. Or don't have to try to make it better.

Ashley: 52:16

I, I think there's, it's, it's really, it's really hard to know, it's really hard to say the right thing.

CJ: 52:21

Yeah.

Ashley: 52:21

I feel like there's 999 wrong things to say and only one right thing to say. And 99. 9 percent of the time, I still fuck. Oh, me too. All the time. Like, my our good friend was diagnosed with brain cancer this week, and I'm just like, what the fuck do I say? I really don't even know what to say. Like I'm like, uh, what can I do to help but then you're like you're supposed to offer help and then I'm like But I can't just show up at your house because I don't think you're home. So we're just tell me what just like What do you want me to do? Can I send you groceries do you have allergies? Can you eat fucking gluten? I have no idea. I can't even send groceries I'm so difficult.

Rachel: 53:02

I was like

Ashley: 53:03

Cause then they'd get, then it's like, oh, if they get all these groceries and like, they're gluten free and like, none of the groceries are gluten free, what are they going to do with them? They're going to be like, we have to say thank you, but she sent us the wrong things. So there's like a winning,

CJ: 53:15

right? You get stuck in that loop because when you, you want to help so bad, but asking the person, what can I do is now putting it on them. Yeah, exactly. Like I couldn't think of what I needed. Like I was exhausted. I was mentally spent just looking at a text exhausted me. And, and I know it's like we have these moments where we truly want to help people. And I think it's just. It's just, just do it. Just do the thing that you want to do and that's enough, right? Or just say, I don't know what to say.

Rachel: 53:51

I always loved it when someone would message and just say, just checking in, no need to reply. It'd be like, oh, thank you.

CJ: 53:58

Yes. That's amazing. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah. That's something I learned and I do now. If somebody is going through something, I'm just like, just. Just here. Don't reply. It's okay. Yeah. But yeah, like you said, actually, it's, it's hard. We, we will fuck it up all the time, but I think if we do it with honesty and authenticity, that's the energy that we're looking for more than A p to make things feel better. I think, like you said, Rachel, like we don't need to to be made to feel better. We just need to be seen and that's it.

Rachel: 54:30

Yeah. You can't make it better, can you? So no need to try, but yeah. Mm-hmm Just know that you're being sort.

CJ: 54:37

So before we let you go, we like to ask our guests if they would be willing or wanted to share. One of their favorite memories with, with their love with their loved ones. So love to hear a memory maybe of you and your husband or your dad or your mom or all three. Totally up to you.

Rachel: 54:53

Yeah, probably my favorite memories of my mom, really. And I think I miss her a lot this time of year. We've just had a birthday and it was always our annual girls Christmas shopping trip. And we just used to love it. It was like the highlight of our year. So we'd like. Go to a shop and then a pub, then a shop to a pub, and then go and have a meal at my dad's favorite restaurant. Yeah, with all the pubs, I don't know how we ever came home with all the, all of the shopping bags, but we did. But yeah, it's just, yeah, it used to be the highlight of our year and it was just such a lovely mother and daughter day. Yeah, one time we got off the train and me and my husband met us with my stepdad and we decided to go for one more drink and ended up in the karaoke, like, absolutely, yeah. Screaming like cats to Madonna's leg prayer and me and him pretended that they weren't with us.

Ashley: 55:48

Yeah. I love that. Oh, that's fucking awesome. That's so much

Rachel: 55:51

fun. That's awesome. Made me want you to have one

Ashley: 55:52

then. That's amazing.

CJ: 55:54

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. And we are so thankful for you coming on to the show and sharing your mom, your dad, and your husband with us. And yeah, it was great. And like I said, we're just, we're thankful and we're blown away that people continue to, to come up and want to share their story. And I know that it's going to help. A lot of people. So thank you so much, Rachel. Oh,

Rachel: 56:16

thank you for having me on.

CJ: 56:24

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Day After. You can find this podcast and more at our website at www. thedayafter. com. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd really appreciate if you could take a moment to leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.