Sibling Bonds and Grief: Maddee Reflects on Her Sister's Life and Legacy | The Day After Ep. 4

In this heartfelt episode of The Day After, hosts Ashley and CJ engage in a powerful and emotional conversation with their guest, Maddee. The episode delves into the impact of losing Maddee's sister, Tilke, to suicide in January 2022, exploring the complexities of grief, mental health struggles, and the dynamics within a family navigating such a profound loss.

Maddee shares how her relationship with her sister was intertwined with both sisterly bonds and a mother-daughter dynamic, given their 16-year age difference. Throughout the episode, Maddee opens up about the challenging journey of witnessing her sister's struggle with mental health issues and the difficult times leading up to Tilke's death. She talks about the feelings of anticipatory grief and the struggle of trying to support someone who is battling depression and suicidal ideation.

The episode also explores themes of family dynamics, the process of grieving, and how Maddee has worked to redefine her spiritual journey and maintain her connection with her sister in a new way. Maddee reflects on the importance of honoring her sister's memory and legacy through small and significant gestures.

Listeners will find this episode to be a poignant reminder of the importance of mental health awareness and the ways in which grief can transform us, leaving an indelible impact on our lives. Join Ashley, CJ, and Maddee as they navigate the delicate path of loss, hope, and healing.

Transcript

Maddee: 0:12

I lost my sister, Tilke, on January 19th, 2022, and she was 43 years old. She was 16 years my senior. So although sisters also sort of like a Mother daughter relationship at times kind of like depending on where I was at in my life. I would say She struggled with mental health the whole my whole memory of her at times it was worse at times it got better and those were amazing times, but it was always kind of like a cloud either like overhead or in the distance. So even if it had kind of like receded a little bit and it felt like she was really like living her life beautifully and authentically. It was kind of always like in the back of all of our heads in my family that it was something that was going to be there

CJ: 1:16

no

Maddee: 1:16

matter what. So, probably a year prior to her death by suicide she started having some more difficulties. She had been tapering off of Cymbalta, which she was on for depression and for pain management. And she had been on it for over 10 years, which is a long time to be on a prescription like that. So she had started having some symptoms with just sort of like the pain was coming back, but definitely some of the like depression was coming back too. And I think probably in August of 2021 is when I really, like, started noticing it a lot more and started making a point to be, like, checking in a lot more than I had been, maybe. So between September and January, it was really just a battle of trying to get treatment, trying to get treatment. back on Cymbalta, which did not end up helping her. She went to inpatient treatment. She went to outpatient treatment. She went to talk therapy. So sort of being along for that ride was, in a lot of ways, I feel like I was grieving, like, before she Ended up dying because I was grieving the person that I knew I was grieving the life that she wanted for herself and that I wanted for her and yeah, so it was kind of like a weird feeling, you know, when you see somebody going through something and having like active suicidal ideation for that period of time where Pretty much every time I saw her, she was talking about wanting to die, which is really hard to see somebody, but it's also so hard to see somebody suffering when you don't want them to suffer. So I think that's one of the things that's difficult to talk about with people who haven't really like been through that particular experience. Because obviously I did not want this to be the outcome, but I also didn't want her to suffer. I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like I've been feeling like this for a long time, and I feel like I've been feeling like this longer and longer with no, like, light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, or she didn't feel that way, and it was hard to, like, try and maintain any type of hope when it did feel like she was trying all the things that you're supposed to try, and nothing was really helping.

CJ: 4:19

Did you feel like you were taking on a lot of her hopelessness, too, because you saw that she was trying stuff and it just wasn't working?

Maddee: 4:27

Yeah, I do feel like that, in a way. Felt very much like You know, when you see the commercial to call, like, 988 for suicide prevention I really hope that that does help people, but it didn't help her. So it's hard to kind of, like, balance those two things when You are doing like a quote, what you're supposed to do to get better and to help yourself and there's no relief. So it did feel hopeless because it felt like just no one had any answers. Nobody had a way to help her and she was just at home spiraling, you know, and we were just kind of trying to remediate in the moment, which was like finding rope and like taking it away. So, you know, I don't. Yeah, it's just, it's tough. It's tough because you're, you kind of feel like you're left to your own devices, but you don't really have any devices. So, yeah, it definitely felt hopeless for sure.

CJ: 5:37

Do you have any other siblings or is it just you and your sister?

Maddee: 5:40

I do. Yes, we have a brother who is in between the two of us. So he is 41 now.

CJ: 5:49

And what was the dynamic? So you so taking it back a little bit. You, so you said she was 16 years your senior, so There was just a few years of overlap before she left home. Yeah,

Maddee: 6:04

I pretty much have no memory of like living in the house together. Probably my earliest memory of her was she was in New York City for college. She was a theater major. She acted and directed all throughout her life. So that was something that kept her going for sure. And she was always like the life of the party, like very much the drama in a good way. But she definitely brought the drama. So yeah, probably my earliest memories of her was like visiting her at college. I really have nothing from prior to that.

CJ: 6:41

Yeah. And you, so you said it created almost like a mother daughter dynamic. Growing up. Yeah, definitely.

Maddee: 6:48

It was like she was fun. So she was my sister, but then she also had a lot of like lessons to teach me, you know, so she was like Letting me do the mistake, but was definitely like, let's re evaluate that, you know?

CJ: 7:05

Yeah. As a good older sister should. Yeah, right, right. Or older sibling, I should say. So I'm interested in the, the, that dynamic specifically because you mentioned that, that her mental health seemed to be a struggle for most of her life, or a lot of, a large portion. Those last six months or whatever it was when things got pretty intense, it sounds almost like you became the mother, the caretaker. And I'm curious what that felt like for you to have to take that on and now take on something as heavy as essentially keeping her alive or trying to find hope when it felt like there was no hope.

Maddee: 7:49

For sure. Yeah, I actually think that was part of the like dynamic was that she was Trying to keep a lot of what was going on from me And it was like, you know, she did her best but then she was having a lot of like Paranoia and stuff like that where she would we would just be on the phone for like three hours and she would be Running through all of these things that she thought were going on and, you know, having me verify whether something was or wasn't happening. So yeah, I do think she still like through the end tried to protect me as much as she could. But I do feel like, yeah, I, I took on, and maybe not only for her, but just in my family dynamic, that also, like, brought up I definitely feel like I spent a lot of time trying to keep everybody together. Because that's always been my role, and I think that that's something. That's difficult about grief and like going through a process like this, like losing somebody, it really brings out those dynamics like even more so. So when it's something that is not necessarily beneficial to your own process, something like trying to take care of everybody else and prioritizing checking in on other people and then you forget to check in on yourself. That's something that I definitely had to work really hard to try and get out of that dynamic. So Yeah, I do think there was a little bit of it with my sister, but I think in general with my whole family, I was doing a lot of just trying to care for everybody and trying to lessen the burden if I could, which it's, you know, impossible to do, but

CJ: 9:49

that's a lot to take on. That is so much to take on. And you mentioned that. It was something that you have had to work to kind of untangle and get yourself out of. I think there is So much that comes out when you have death or struggle to the degree that you experienced in families. And whether it's the dynamic of the family, the dysfunction of the family. Yeah. I mean I know. With different things that I've gone through, it really kind of brings to light a lot of the stuff that may have been hidden beneath the surface. And I'm, I, I personally feel this is a very common thing. So, what was it like for you to begin to untangle that and try to come out from it? Now, I say that knowing that it's only been a couple years, so this is still so new and fresh. But I'm curious, like, to date, what have you, you done besides just knowing that that's happening?

Maddee: 10:56

Yeah. So, I think, honestly, I, I do owe a lot of it to my sister because I feel like she did her best to sort of, like, set me up to tackle some of these, like, family dynamics. Like, these were things that we talked about a lot together because there's a lot going on, as with most families. Mm hmm. So there were elements of it that, like, we tried to work on together, so I feel like that honestly propelled me forward in a way of, like, I know that I need to continue on working that path for her, because that's something that we started together, you know, so, right after probably It was, she died on a Wednesday, and two weeks from that Friday, after, I broke my leg skiing. So, I was supposed to go back to work that day, and I was like, I just need one more day, I'm gonna go skiing, which is something that my sister taught me, she taught me how to ski, like, maybe five, six years ago? So, like, as an adult, she taught me how to ski, so. And actually, on the day that she died, I was out skiing, and I just feel like that was something that, like, connected us together. So, the day that I was supposed to go back to work, I decided to go skiing instead, and go back to work the next day. And, lo and behold, I broke my leg, and it was the first time I've ever broken a bone. And it was like, right in my knee area, so it was like, I couldn't get a cast, but I also could not put any weight on it for, I think it was like 12 weeks, so it was like, okay, well, you're not going back to work, so I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna be at home, alone, can barely do anything for myself. But guess what? That forced me to not do anything for anyone else because I physically could not.

CJ: 13:13

Right.

Maddee: 13:14

So during that time, I was just doing therapy over Zoom one or two days a week. I was Spending a lot of time trying to get familiar with a new relationship with my sister, which, for me, involved, like, really pursuing what my own spirituality was going to be like, given all of this new information that I was confronted with processing. Prior to that, I feel like I really did not have any real spiritual process for myself. I felt like I was very much like of a logical mind only, no real like religious affiliation, just sort of like You know, this is what it is. And that's cool. But I feel like for myself and other people that I've spoken to, I feel like a death when it's when it hits you that hard, like it does kind of lead you to reckon with your own spirituality and what you want to believe to be true. So I spent a lot of time with that, which I think has honestly helped me a lot, because for me, I am now just like having a sister in a different way.

CJ: 14:47

That's right.

Maddee: 14:48

Yeah.

CJ: 14:50

Yeah, I was, uh, confronted the same way. Really wasn't sure what I believed or anything. I just, I had deconstructed any belief that I had growing up. And Came to the conclusion that energy is never created or destroyed. So something persists. But for the first, probably the first year after my wife died, I would try to like pick up different books and try to entertain the idea of some form of spirituality. And I would get a rush of anxiety and anger. I would like throw the book and be like, I'm not fucking dealing with this shit right now. Like I could not engage. It wasn't until this year, actually three, four years later that I was able to finally, uh, figure that out. But I was posed with that question in therapy of like. Stop trying to relate to your wife as if she is a physical presence in your life still. And you need to redefine that relationship. So I think it's pretty fucking incredible that you were able to do that so early and recognize that. But it is an important step, right? It's like we have to redefine whatever our beliefs are, even if we don't have any. We have to redefine what that relationship with that person that we lost is to move forward so that that's pretty that's pretty incredible

Maddee: 16:12

Yeah, that's so true. It is and I think that for everybody it is such a like different process. I think for me My sister was very spiritual and like a lot of What she believed I think sort of all came rushing back to me when I asked myself the question and She was very like witchy if you will so Sometimes like we would do a little like full moon ceremonies and rituals together and I feel like she honestly just like again sort of like set me up to like Take this path because I had all this information already that sort of just like came flooding back when I was Asking myself what, what my next steps were, you know,

CJ: 17:10

yeah, you know, another similarity to, I don't mean to keep pointing these out, but it's pretty amazing. I just hear so much of, of the lessons that you received from, from her almost like a very, just. Amazing thing that it was this preparation for her death, even though nobody kind of knew that it was coming, even though maybe, maybe you guys did. And I actually remember sitting down with Ashley's dad. We were in hospice, which we did at my house. It was like the third or fourth day. And she was getting pretty close to the end. And he told me, he's like, listen, like Ariana already taught you everything you need to know. You already learned the lessons. You just have to remember them and just tap into them. And that, like, that struck such a chord with me, and, and I just, I think it's really beautiful that, that you had that same experience with your sister.

Maddee: 18:10

Yeah. I agree. I think it really is, it's so painful when you have to really start, like, reconciling that, but then I feel like you can get to a place where it's so comforting, you know? And I think a lot of I, when I started therapy, it was important for me to have a therapist who was a little bit spiritual, a little bit, you know, non traditional. And we did spend a lot of time talking about how, like, my sister really set me up well, honestly, to, like, move forward. And obviously this is not something that anybody would choose to go through. Yeah, I feel like I'm at a point now where I really feel so comforted by, like, her memory and all of the things that she left with me.

CJ: 19:12

That's amazing.

Maddee: 19:13

Yeah.

CJ: 19:16

It's actually amazing. It's awe inspiring. Because it's so soon, and it's such a traumatic death, and there was such a struggle for her. And I want to go back to that, but I do think it deserves to be said that, like, The experience that you're having is it's quite beautiful. And I definitely want to acknowledge that. Because it's not easy. And, I mean, even for me, like, I, I went headfirst into my grief because I was like, I want to heal. And, but I think there was, there was a part of me that also was like, so fucking arrogant of like, I'm going to be the best griever that there ever was and I'm going to heal so good. And it's going to just like, it's not going to destroy me. And I pushed and I pushed and I pushed and I did get a lot of healing, but a lot came crashing back this year where I'm like now having to like, kind of finally just slow down and be like, yeah, this, this fucking wrecked me in some ways. And I need to admit that if I'm going to get an even deeper healing. So I think it's amazing your approach to this.

Maddee: 20:29

Well, I think, honestly, that's, I go back to, like, physically being unable to do anything other than just, like, literally sit with it. I mean, I have to, of course, also not ideal to break your leg, but I almost feel like if I hadn't had that force me to not go to work, force me to not overextend myself with my family to support them. And instead I had to learn how to be helped and be taken care of and rely on people and not be the one who's being relied on all the time.

CJ: 21:15

Right. So I

Maddee: 21:16

think without that, I honestly don't think that I would be Where I'm at right now, because it was just such a, I, my whole life just got like flipped on its head again because I had just lost my sister. Okay, well I'm gonna, you know, go back to normal life or whatever, because that's what you do, right? You get your two weeks off and then, yeah. Okay. Back to it. You know, your grieving time is over. You don't have any more paid days off or whatever. It was a, it was, it was a little

Ashley: 21:52

bit of a blessing that you broke your leg.

Maddee: 21:54

I honestly, yeah, no, in hindsight, yeah, I really do think that, I really do think that, because I really don't know what I would have done. I think I would have been inclined to just sort of like, try to forget about it, try to be my normal self, which is such a A thing for grieving people is like, I don't think you can express how deeply you are Not the same. That's right. Person. You are a completely new person doing your same old thing, and people expect the same old thing.

CJ: 22:33

That's right.

Maddee: 22:34

And to communicate to somebody like you just, you can't, you know, to say like, that's not who I am. That's not what I care about. Which, that was really hard for me, because the things that I cared about were just so drastically different than the things that I cared about before. Cause it's like, literally nothing can measure up to what I'm experiencing right now. Nothing can come close to importance. The important thing is my sister. Everything else is like, I don't, I can't see it. I can't hear it. I don't want to think about it. But how do you say that? It's

Ashley: 23:18

impossible. Do you think your family, I don't want to say like benefited, but do you think, did they, did they like carry on and were they okay? I used the word okay. Loosely, obviously. But do you think that they kind of did what they needed to do to Grieve? To be honest? No, I

Maddee: 23:38

don't think so. I think it's hard because I think too, when You feel like you have found a process that works so well with you and for you, you want that for everybody else, right? Yeah. Yeah. I agree. But it's not gonna be the same. Like, what works for you isn't going to work for everybody. So, I think that's something that I've kind of had to just struggle with a little bit is Letting people be where they're at in their process, which, yeah, is just different from where I'm at, and I would make a different approach, but that's another thing that it's like, you know, you can only do your process. And for them, I just am, you know, hoping that time continues to, like, be a comfort and, yeah.

Ashley: 24:41

Well, as, as, like, someone that is incredibly caring and, like, worried about other people all the time it's probably also, I, I, uh, empathize with that because I am a little bit of that. But it's hard to, like, not try and do something, you know? Not try to make it better. Because, you know, at some point, it's like, well, you can't, you know, like, like, no one, no one can unless the person wants, I'm not saying they don't want to help themselves, but until they really want to, like, do the work to, you know, grieve it and feel like they are in a good place about it. And I think it can also change with time. Like, you know, I think you can be in a good place about it, and then there's things that, like, trigger it all to come back a little bit. You know, I, like, I, like you were saying in the beginning, I feel very much like my mom was here for a certain period of time and like, I don't, I don't try to replace her. I don't try to find a replacement. It kind of is like this thing that happened and that, that's my story. Like not everyone's story gets to, you know, have their mom in their life, their, their, their whole life. They don't get to be here for all the moments and all that stuff. But. And I, I really have, like, no, I, I think it, I think I used to, like, as a kid, I was, like, a little bit angry at times which definitely made me question, like, spiritual versus not, or being, like, God, and being Catholic, and all that stuff but I literally have, like, there's just, there's no animosity about it, it's kind of like, it's just, it's my story, and kind of is what it is.

CJ: 26:14

You got over the animosity?

Ashley: 26:16

I don't know, like,

CJ: 26:17

Anger?

Ashley: 26:18

Yeah, I don't, I think it was just kind of like in the beginning, like a little bit of anger, like, how could this happen? And then it was just like, well, this is just my story. So, yeah, I think I, I mean, I guess I did get over it, but or

CJ: 26:29

accepted it rather. Yeah.

Ashley: 26:30

Accept, yeah, probably more accepted. Like I, like, I just doesn't, I don't, I don't, I don't have, I just find ways to. You know, honor my mom in, like, moments that you know, she would normally be there, uh, normally be there. Uh huh. And, uh, you know, now, like, looking towards, like, a future is more, like, I will hopefully be there for, like, my kids to have that experience. And I get to have that experience in a way that I didn't get to experience as a kid, but I get to experience it as being the mom, you know?

CJ: 27:01

Mm hmm. Yeah, I, I just, I always think of my kids every time I listen to you talk and reflect on it. Yeah. And just like wonder like what they're gonna reflect back on. Yeah. And what they're gonna think about, but it definitely changes us. It changes us in the most permanent way. Which I think is is something that only those who have gone through it can understand and everybody else expects us to be who we were And that just doesn't work that way. Yeah, I

Ashley: 27:33

probably have a little bit less of that feeling

CJ: 27:35

Mmm, right cuz you were

Ashley: 27:37

it's more like I was so young and that this is who I was destined to be. Mm hmm This, like, this was just meant to be my story or what, you know, what my life was like. Mm-hmm So,'cause I don't, I don't know that I, like, I don't have like a before, before, like like be BC bm. I don't have before mom. Really? Yeah. Like I do, you know, like I, I remember the family dynamic and we went, we went to Disney World and you know, like, like I remember things like that. But I mostly remember like. Not beyond after nine, you know, I remember her getting sick. She was most sick most of my childhood So I kind of like remember mom being sick and don't remember her being like super healthy Really and I I actually don't particularly remember her like super sick Like I've seen photos of her like like really so ill Yeah, and I don't really like I'm sure that's something that I've like rejected or whatever they say.

CJ: 28:34

Mm

Ashley: 28:34

hmm I think that, I mean, I like to think that it's something about like the innocence of a child where it's just like, well, this is mom, you know, like, yeah, she was sick. She couldn't, you know, she couldn't necessarily like pick me up all the time, but she was always home unless she was like at her doctor's appointments, but those were usually when I was at school. So I don't really have like that, like before and it changed me. It's kind of always been me. That's always, it's always been part of my story is basically it.

CJ: 29:02

Yeah. That makes sense though, right? I mean, yeah, you've had more lived experience without an answer than you have with with the, the going back to your sister's death. So you said you were skiing when it happened.

Maddee: 29:18

Well, I was out skiing like during that day, which I, again, like this is all in my hindsight, but I, I saw this little mouse like run across the ski hill while I was going down, which I had never seen anything like that before. And it made me think of my sister because she at one point in time had a mouse in her house and she called it house mouse and she would like take pictures of it and send me pictures. She wouldn't kill it. She was like, it's so cute. I love her so much. And then she did ultimately die one day. Sister was like crushed beyond belief. Like she was like, not house mouse. Like, I can't believe this happened. She was eating so good. I had food everywhere or whatever. But it made me think of her and I was like, Oh, I'm going to call her when I get, when I'm on my way home. Cause I have like an hour drive from Ellicottville back into the city. So I did call her on my way home and she didn't answer and I left her a message That was probably at like 4 o'clock ish, I'm guessing, and then probably at like 7. 30, 7, 7. 30, my brother called me, and yeah, that was, that was it, that was the moment.

CJ: 30:44

So in that moment, because you talked about the, that the kind of duality of I want to help them so bad, but there's no help, and I don't, I also don't want them suffering, her suffering, what, what was the, the moment after and the days and weeks after With that sense of relief in some ways, and also the sheer sadness.

Maddee: 31:14

Yeah, so hard to balance those feelings, because it's like, it's not relief, but it, it's like, they're relieved of their suffering and their pain. So in a way, there is like a relief for you. Yeah, I don't know, I have this really weird, like, feeling of that time of like, and still to this day, I feel, This sense of like familiarity with the situation and like, I don't know, I don't know if there's past life. I don't really know what I believe about that, but I, it kind of gives me that feeling that like, I've been here before,

CJ: 31:59

like it

Maddee: 31:59

didn't feel new to me. It felt like, and it's possible that it's just because like the months leading up to like, of course I had to accept the fact that like, this was. A potential outcome,

CJ: 32:14

but

Maddee: 32:14

I also think that there is like a protective quality of your brain that like no matter how much you logically understand that this could happen. You can't really accept that because if you accept that, then like, what are you saying, right? Like, how do you maintain any hope for yourself, for your loved one, for your family?

CJ: 32:40

Mm hmm.

Maddee: 32:41

Yeah. So I, I don't know if it's kind of like some of that coming in to like comfort me in a way, but it, it was comforting in a way that I felt like, This wasn't my first time going through this. I don't know.

CJ: 32:59

That's wild.

Maddee: 33:00

So, yeah, there was a lot of, like, feelings of, you know, definitely right away, I think I wanted to wonder what more could have been done.

CJ: 33:12

Mm.

Maddee: 33:13

And I think that's something that, at this point, I have let go of because, you know, no matter what, it's just, it's not helpful to me to consider, you

CJ: 33:26

know?

Maddee: 33:27

And I did. All I could do. So I think there was a lot of like that sort of like wondering. There was it was it again. I feel like the shock wasn't really there because it was like I felt like I had I had been it through it. I don't know. Yeah, it's hard to explain. But yeah, I definitely think Like the days and, and weeks after a blur in some ways, in other ways, it was like time was standing still.

CJ: 34:06

Yeah,

Maddee: 34:09

just kind of trying to like navigate. What does this mean? What do we do? That was a big, you know, okay, well what do we do in this situation? I think especially with suicide, it's Really difficult to talk about right away. I think now I've gotten a lot more comfortable talking about it. But for sure, in the immediate, I was like, if I say that this is what happened, then that blemishes her memory. That was like my fear. My fear was that if I talk about this, if I acknowledge this, if I You know make her last five months known to the world and like that this is how she ultimately died Like, what does that do to her memory? And is that something that I can cope with? Is that something that I can navigate?

CJ: 35:14

What was the thought of what it would do to her memory? Like, tarnish it in some way, or?

Maddee: 35:19

Yeah, like, tarnish it. Like, make people think that, like, you know, because I do think there's still such a stigma surrounding it, and that I think in my head, I was like, if somebody thinks that, like, she was selfish for doing this, that will, like, send me over the edge. Like, I won't be able to, like, express with enough ferocity that that is not the case, right? Yes. Yeah. Like, I cannot allow anybody to think that she was selfish in making this decision. Or, that I put any blame on her, that I have any negative feelings towards her. Like, I couldn't think of somebody thinking like that. So I was like, how do I navigate that though?

CJ: 36:11

How did you?

Maddee: 36:12

And I think it just, I mean, it took me time and then I think I I think this was kind of part of my, my journey was really like tapping into my relationship with her and being able to, like, ask her what would she want me to do. And then it became clear that I needed to just talk about it, that I wasn't going to hurt her in any way, and if anything, perhaps I could help somebody by talking about it, by being open about it.

CJ: 36:46

When you got that clarity And I'm assuming it, it took time and many different things to, to come to that conclusion. It wasn't just an epiphany overnight. How easily was your mind and body able to accept that and to move forward with that?

Maddee: 37:04

I think it's been a process. I think So, initially, I, I felt that I could write about it.

CJ: 37:12

Okay.

Maddee: 37:12

So, I started writing because I felt like that was a little bit less vulnerable, a little bit more like I can, you know, read this over as many times as I need to before I code it, post it, put it out into the world. So, at first, I started with that, and I probably started doing that. Maybe like a month after her death, because I also wanted to kind of take note of like where I was at, which has honestly been really helpful to me even now being able to read back. It's just so interesting, like, to be able to look at my own journey and like see where I was at and see where I'm at now. So yeah, writing right away pretty much. And then talking about it, I feel like it's just been an ongoing kind of like, the more you do it, the easier it is, right? But it's kind of like getting in the space to talk about it isn't always as easy or accessible, you know? Like, I'll talk with friends about it, people who already know about it, but I think it's even harder to Discuss with strangers or people who don't already sort of have the foundation of my story, if that makes sense. It's like starting from ground zero trying to explain the whole thing from start to finish. It feels impossible to do that, but

CJ: 38:52

Do you feel a sense of heavy responsibility for her legacy?

Maddee: 38:59

I would say yes, I don't feel it in a way that's like a pressure, but I feel it in a way of like, this would be a beautiful way to spend my time, you know, to honor her legacy, like, in little things and big things, so I think for me it has been a process of finding ways to like, Integrate her still in my life as my life continues to change and things are different from the way they were when she was last here, you know, and then I do have dreams of like having a scholarship in her name and stuff like that that I'm working on, but it's not like time sensitive, right? None of it is like time sensitive, so it's just yeah. You know, I think a way that I could put my energy into something that she would really be excited about too.

CJ: 40:04

When you redefined or created this new relationship with her, what does that look like now and what are ways that you connect with her?

Maddee: 40:15

So I think definitely integrating some of the things that we did together, like skiing, like, full moon rituals, things like that, doing yoga, doing tarot, just things that she loved to do and introduced me to. Those are the ways that I really feel the most connected to her. I have a little like altar sort of shelf above my desk where I have like a bunch of little pictures and like mementos and other things that I just, I get to see it every day and I feel like that's really important for me. Because, you know, even when I am not intentionally thinking about her, like, I want her to be with me all the time. So like, when I do a yoga practice, I always thank her at the end of it, because I just know that she's been with me at some point, and I think it's important to, like, acknowledge them and say out loud every now and then. You know? Love that. I have a little notebook that I, like, picked out specially with her in mind that I'll, like, write little notes and things to her in that.

CJ: 41:28

Oh.

Maddee: 41:29

So that's another way that I feel like I'm able to look back on, like, my own journey too and, like, just see what I was Wanting to tell her or thinking about about her or things like that So I feel like that's been really important for me to

CJ: 41:45

that notebook idea. I need to write that down Actually,

Maddee: 41:48

I forget who that came from that definitely came from somebody else. That wasn't my original idea But getting to like pick out a special little pink notebook that I thought she would like that was fun for me And now that's our little way to communicate.

CJ: 42:04

That's so awesome.

Ashley: 42:06

I feel like I feel like I would um Like, I haven't had a, not, not need, but like I haven't wanted to do something like that, but as I get older I've thought about, like, getting more into, like, like, writing and in terms of, like, writing for myself, not, like, writing externally. And I love that idea.

CJ: 42:25

Yeah, me too.

Maddee: 42:26

Me too. I think it's been, she was a big journaler. So that was something that I spent a lot of time reading through her journals after she died. Well, interesting. Yeah, that was a, it was, it was a heavy. A lot of it was heavy.

Ashley: 42:44

I can't imagine. Some of

Maddee: 42:45

it was like, you know, I don't know, just getting to feel connected to her on that level, even though some of it was obviously really painful and difficult. And I broke it up over a long period of time because it was a lot. But I feel like just getting to like be with her in that way was something that I don't yeah. I think a lot of people get to have, and it was,

Ashley: 43:14

yeah,

Maddee: 43:15

really like cathartic for me in a way. I also had a crazy experience with one of the notebooks where I opened it up to the first page, and it just had my name written on the top of the page, and then it said, Hi there, I love you.

CJ: 43:29

No way. Aw.

Maddee: 43:31

Yeah, to be able to have that that's like just another little a little treat if you will a

Ashley: 43:38

little trinket

CJ: 43:39

Yeah,

Ashley: 43:40

that it well, it's just a it's like not just it's a glimpse of her experience and Yeah, for sure you know even maybe in those moments if she even if you even if she was sharing it to an extent it might not Have been to the extent that she was writing about it and to be able to at least I don't know. I feel like it's like to have an understanding, like you, you may, you might not understand it completely, but you can at least, like, read her perspective. I think, I think a lot of times, I mean, it feels like from conversations that we've had in CJ, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but, this, the, the extra or the differentiated struggle with loss due to suicide is like the unknown and the could I, could I have done anything better? And maybe they didn't see it coming or maybe, you know, maybe they did, but like there still was no understanding of really the struggle that this person was going through. Yeah.

CJ: 44:38

And I think it really comes back to, we still just don't take mental health. the same as we take physical health.

Ashley: 44:45

Yeah. I think we're getting better. We are. I think we're getting a little bit better. We are. But, like, even to your point, Maddie, when you were saying, like, you know, do people think it's selfish? Like, I do think that that was such a, that was, I mean, that was very much the label that suicide had for us in my, in my experience. But I feel like a lot of people have really, I feel like that part's gone away a little bit. I'm sure that there's still people in this world that think that but I do feel like it's made some strides and I don't know if it's like the pandemic or just. Like us as millennials that have taken more of it, like see mental health is so much more important than like our parents.

Maddee: 45:31

I think it is like people are just struggling more like out in the open, I think. So it's like you can't ignore it. Like you can't pretend it's not happening. But I do agree. Like I think there is a lot more like openness to conversations, but I do think there's still sort of this. Overarching feeling of like, how could you do this to your family, your loved one, your child, whoever, I think that is sort of like where the like selfish sort of like connotation comes back into play because it's like, well, whatever was going on with you, how could you still, how could you do that? You know? And I think that's, I mean, Yeah, it's just hard to imagine somebody getting to that place, but clearly we have a An epidemic

CJ: 46:26

of

Maddee: 46:27

suicide and so clearly people do get to that place and yeah, I wish I had answers. I think a lot of it is, you know, just financial, like, just actual investment into resources and Investing in people and their lives.

Ashley: 46:46

Yeah. We talked a lot about that with Jake on a recent episode. I think I heard some clips of that and I was like, this resonates. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's, there's just, isn't, we haven't figured out as a society, the right solutions for. Mental health and help in supporting people through that like we have doctors that help broken bones And we have doctors that you know, help our eyeballs when our eyeballs are fucked up But they don't like we just don't have we were just talking about this with a neighbor who? She's like a guardian for a woman that has schizophrenia Yeah, and they I don't know if it's this area or whatever, I'm not trying to open Pandora's box, but it's just something about how, like, she is, she's 78, and she's schizophrenic, but she can't go into, like, a senior living home. Uh huh. Oh wow. She has to go into like a mentally, mentally ill, I think it's like for folks that are mentally ill, but they are also putting like people that need like rehab and have drug addictions in the same place. And, yes, are there maybe overlaps of like how those people should be treated, but should they be in like the same place? Like, Yeah, like, you know, like, you, you have people that are, that need assisted living and that need senior living, like, and they have maybe, like, separate wings, and they have different people that are attending to each of them. That could work maybe, but it's like they don't need, they have completely different needs and we, we as like people have completely different needs when, when we have mental health concerns.

CJ: 48:26

Well, and that's the frustration is you can't walk into work and say. I am struggling mentally right now with some, you know, whatever you want to insert is, is something I need time off. But if I walked in and my leg, my bone was sticking out of my leg, they'd be like, what are you doing here? Go get it taken care of. Go home and rest. Like the only, not the only, that's extreme language, but so much of the time, it has to be these extreme events that allow you to have time off from work. And it's usually not enough. Like I, right. I had to take time off. I needed to take time off after a few years because I didn't get enough in the beginning and I was struggling so bad To cope and to like deal with life as a solo parent grieving with three grieving children Everything was coming at me, and I still had to go to doctor after doctor after doctor after psychologist to get a note to then go fill out a bunch of forms to then get HR to say, Okay, now you can go take a couple weeks off. Like, it's insane to me. And I'm like, That is where the struggle comes in, right? Like we don't treat it as like, yes, there's an actual physical thing that is happening to this person because we can't see it. We can't measure it. We don't know. We're not familiar with the severity of it. And then you have people who are severely struggling, like, Jake's girlfriend, right? Like, she was, and she had addiction, and she was struggling with her mental health. She tried to kill herself. She tried to take her own life. And they still did nothing. They're like, oh, it's the mental health problem. Go over here. And they're like, no, it's an addiction problem. Go over here. Like, it's so fucking frustrating.

Maddee: 50:08

Well, I think that's part of it, too, is that There isn't like, for instance, when you break a bone, they put a cast on you and you go. But with mental health, a lot of times it is so multifaceted that it's easy for a provider to say, this isn't my specialty, this isn't for me to deal with, and then shuffle somebody off to someone else. And how many times does that happen to somebody and then they're falling through the cracks because nobody wants to take accountability for the care of that person because it's hard, it's hard to determine. What treatment might work, it's hard to determine where this is stemming from, and it isn't going to be a quick, simple solution, it's going to be ongoing investment and care for people, which we just don't have the facility, the finances, like, it's just the infrastructure is not there for it, and that's how it's You know, people will continue to just fall through the cracks because they're getting shuffled around and nobody is willing and or able to step up and take on care for that person who needs it.

CJ: 51:25

Yeah, it's, it's so frustrating and it's frustrating because I know there's so many people that want to change this. So people, so many people in the industry who probably want to change this. And, and it's just, you know, like you said, it's just this huge web of, of where do we start? Where do we start?

Maddee: 51:43

I think that's, you know, people get burned out so badly because you go in with this real desire to want to help people when you go into these helping professions. And then you're in there and you realize like you're completely strapped, you are unable to help, you know. Yeah, I was actually in school for social work for my MSW, and that was my first semester was during this, like, this September 2. Yeah, so I ended up dropping out, and I was like, maybe I'll go back, and then the more I, like, considered Myself as a cog in that machine. I was like, there's no way that I can reconcile my feelings towards the institution and like how unable I think I would be able to actually help anybody. Right. So I think that's kind of where I'm at too, with like, I would love to be able to help people. I still feel like that's what I'm meant to do, but now it's just sort of like finding An alternative avenue for that.

CJ: 52:58

That's wild. You were in college for that and then that happened. Hmm. I know there's so much more, but we want to be considerate of your time. And we are appreciative of you sharing so much of, of your story, your experience, your sister with us. Before we have you go though, we like to ask our guests if they want to, if they're comfortable to share one or two favorite memories that they have with, with their loved one. And if If you would want to share a little bit more of your sister with us, we'd love to, to hear that.

Maddee: 53:32

Well, aside from House Mouse, of course, so back when, right after my sister lived in New York City, she moved out to LA to continue pursuing, like acting, and I would've been probably nine when she moved out there. And then she was out there until, hmm. I must have been like 12. So, or maybe like 8 to 12. She was there for like 4 years. So, my parents decided that they would just put me on a plane and send me out there by myself. So, I was like an unaccompanied minor. And my mom would say that that was like my summer camp. So, I would get to go out there for like 10 days or whatever, just me and my sister. And The one summer we did a surf camp together. No way. So, we, she was living in Huntington Beach at the time, and, yeah, we got to go out there and go surfing together, and I just remember thinking, like, she's literally the coolest person. You know, like, that was, like, the thread through, I feel like, for our whole lives. I was like, she is literally the coolest person alive. So that was probably one that really has, like, stuck with me because it was just, like, such a cool experience and then, like, even for her to teach me how to ski later on, I feel like that's kind of, like, lends itself to her, like, adventurous side and she wasn't scared to, like, try something new and, like, be bad at it but laugh at herself. Like, that's definitely a lesson that I've learned from her.

CJ: 55:09

Hmm.

Maddee: 55:10

And what is another story about her? I mean, I have to just shout out her teacup, her teacup her chihuahua, who was a albino chihuahua. Oh my goodness. Was Tito. Oh, I love it. And he was found on the highway in L. A. No way. So she had, he was albino, like he was mostly all white, but he had a tiny little like splotch of blonde almost. Yeah. Like on his forehead.

Ashley: 55:41

Oh my God. And

Maddee: 55:41

Yeah, she had tito with her for like, he, we thought he had to have been like over 20 basically when he passed away. But that was like. Her best friend forever, like, she was giving Paris Hilton, Nicole Richie, with like, a small dog in a bag vibe, living in L. A. Yeah. Gotta shout him out.

Ashley: 56:04

I love that. But

Maddee: 56:05

yeah, she was just like the coolest ever. All of my friends, like, have memories of her growing up, just, like, having the coolest big sister.

CJ: 56:14

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, we appreciate you so much for coming on and sharing. Thank

Maddee: 56:19

you, guys. Thank you.

CJ: 56:21

It's great, and you know, like we said, we couldn't do this without those who were willing to share, so. Yeah. Definitely grateful for you for that. Thank you so much for being on.

Maddee: 56:30

Yeah. I'm, I'm grateful for having this opportunity to talk about my story and my sister anytime I get to talk about her, I'm like, yeah, that's how we keep her alive.

CJ: 56:45

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Day After. You can find this podcast and more at our website at www. thedayafter. com. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd really appreciate if you could take a moment to leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.