Parker's Impact: Love, Family, and Finding Meaning in Grief with Heather | The Day After Ep. 8

In the poignant episode, hosts Ashley and CJ delve into a heartfelt conversation with Heather about the devastating loss of her 11-year-old daughter, Parker, to a rare pediatric cancer. Heather recounts Parker’s journey, diagnosed at nine, filled with hope and struggles, and the aftermath of navigating life without her.

Heather shares the profound impact of grief on her family, transitioning from five to four members, and how each copes differently. She emphasizes the importance of keeping Parker’s memory alive, integrating her spirit into daily life, and learning to live with a new family dynamic. Heather discusses grief misconceptions, noting that time alone doesn’t heal and underscores the necessity of actively processing grief alongside supportive individuals willing to discuss and remember Parker.

A yoga teacher, Heather finds solace in teaching and channels her energy into the Little P Project, a nonprofit founded in Parker's memory. The organization advocates for better research, treatments, and vital support for children fighting cancer and their families, reflecting Heather’s commitment to creating meaning from loss.

The episode also critiques the language surrounding cancer, highlighting the challenges of living with the disease beyond survival. Personal stories shared by Heather and CJ underscore the hidden struggles and traumas experienced in the shadow of illness.

Ultimately, Heather’s journey is one of resilience and enduring love, offering listeners insights into the complexities of grief and the courage to honor loved ones in moving forward. Her story conveys a powerful message of strength, hope, and the significance of community and remembrance in the healing journey.

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A personal note from the hosts: After much reflection, we've decided that this season of "The Day After" will be our final one. It has been a profound honor to share this journey through grief with all of you. As CJ steps back to focus on other ventures, we want to express our deepest gratitude for your support, your stories, and your willingness to navigate these difficult conversations alongside us. Though the podcast is ending, we hope the conversations about grief and loss continue, and that our episodes remain a resource for those who need them. If you've found comfort in our discussions, Ashley and Liz will continue Sit, Lay, Rest - our pet grief podcast - you can follow them on Instagram at @sitlayrest. Thank you for being part of our community.

Music by Servidio Music

Transcript

Heather: 0:12

Yeah, I lost my 11-year-old daughter two and a half years ago from a rare form of pediatric sarcoma, this type of cancer. And she was diagnosed at the age of nine. And, uh, we had a lot of ups and downs through that journey. I would say we probably received more bad news throughout those two years, but yeah, we really didn't expect this to be our outcome. Mm-hmm. With her. I think with her diagnosis, we were just so, I. Focused on the, uh, cure, the, the treatments, the, you know, focused on that goal of getting her better. That the thought of losing her, even though of course that is always underneath it, you just stay focused on the solution. And, uh, unfortunately she lost her battle in May of 20, May 24th, 2022.

CJ: 1:21

Yeah. That is so recent.

Heather: 1:23

It, it really does feel recent. Matter of fact, my, I was texting the family, like extended family, like the anniversary of her death and I said a year and a half ago. Mm-hmm. And I had to really pause and think, no, it was actually two and a half years ago. And, uh. It still doesn't feel that way. Yeah, still feels very close and hard and, uh, yeah, I think the reality has really been established of this loss and how to move forward without her physically here. But I wouldn't say it's gotten any easier.

CJ: 2:09

No, definitely not. Yeah, I, I, I was, uh, talking with my daughter last night. I was sitting we were sitting down in the living room. She's 16, and I was doing this intake and it was asking me like the age that my kids were when my wife died, and my daughter was 12 years old. And I like looked at her and I'm like, holy shit. I'm like, do you realize you were only 12 when mommy died? I'm like, it was four years, but you're in a whole new stage of life. Mm-hmm. And. That I've, I've had those same moments too, where I was like, like, oh, how long has it been? I was like, oh, it's been, you know, like two years. And I'm like, no, it's been three or four. And you just lose that sense of time completely and holy.

Heather: 2:53

You really do. And for me, and I, I so sorry for your loss for me, I don't know if you feel this way, but the further you are from the last time you were with them Yeah. It's like, you want time to stop you really, I know they say time heals at the same time. I think No, that's like further away from that time when I held her hand. Yeah. You know?

CJ: 3:19

Yeah. I agree. I, I think I think the whole adage of Time heals is. A bit destructive. I think time's a factor in our healing, but, you know, there's a lot of people who numb and time doesn't do anything. If anything, it's, it's making it harder because grief will catch up to you no matter how many years you numb. I mean, we've talked to folks who they're like, well, I didn't start dealing with my grief until 25 years later. So I, I think like people would tell me that a lot of like, oh, just get through time. And I think there's an element of it, right? Like you get through that first year and you're just in this huge fog and maybe a little bit shifts, but the grief doesn't shift. It's those, it's that life continues to move on. And like you said, we want it to pause. Like I, I, I remember feeling that so strongly where it's like, I just, like, I, I can't remember my wife's laugh anymore. I can't remember like what it felt to just be in her presence and to feel her energy or to sit down at the table and see her come downstairs or all these things that we have to grapple with of like, not only did we lose them, we lost our future with them. And we've lost the present moment with them and it's so overwhelming at times.

Heather: 4:36

Yeah, I feel the same way. I think you cannot inoculate grief. And I think. It's just like you said, it, it's, it just awaits for you. Mm-hmm. Because it's something that needs to be processed. And for me, similar to your experience, that first year is a complete blur. My husband and I even talk about that. There's things we can't even remember that year.

CJ: 5:00

Yeah.

Heather: 5:00

And I think that that shock is kind of how you feel. Oh, yeah. I just remember walking by pictures. I don't do this as much anymore, but walking by pictures of her in the house and just stopping and being like, this is not real. This is a dream. Yeah. Like, I'm literally gonna wake up from this dream. She cannot be gone. And for someone to have so much life in them and for that love of life, that effervescence, that spirit to have that not be in our home anymore was just, uh. That's the hardest thing I've ever gone through in my life and I'm continuing to go through. But life, life keeps calling you forward. Yeah,

CJ: 5:50

yeah. It's like we don't have a choice and, and everybody around us, their life continues forward and ours is paused and we're just trying to figure out like where's the on-ramp to get back into life? And you know, I, I can't imagine losing a child. I, I, I didn't come close, but six months after my wife died my son ended up getting diagnosed with a, a rare nerve tumor. It ended up being benign, but I came dangerously close in that moment in the doctor's office of like, we think this is cancer. And having to grapple with just losing my wife. And, and I remember getting in the car and my son, he's my, uh, middle child. And he looked at me, he was 11 at the time, and he was like, do I have cancer? I was like, how the hell am I supposed to answer this? Right? And it was devastating. So to, to go through the process of knowing and experiencing it, actually becoming that is something that I, I just think is, is life altering. So I'm curious about one, do you have any other children?

Heather: 6:58

I have two other children, and Parker was our baby. Okay. So, yeah. I also have three. It's funny when you ask that, it's like, people that don't know I've lost a child, they'll say, oh, how many children do you have?

CJ: 7:10

Mm.

Heather: 7:11

And I still say, free. Yes. And if they ask more, if they say, how, how old are they? Da da da da. Then I'll say, well, my youngest passed away two and a half years ago. Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like it still needs to be said out loud. Not ignored and honored a life that's honored. And if it makes people uncomfortable hearing it, then I'm sorry, but that's, that's just part of life for me anyway. And

CJ: 7:40

yeah, I

Heather: 7:41

think that grief has a tendency in our culture to be overlooked. Some, I think that positive toxicity that we have in our environment of you know, everything's good around us. And when you have something like what we've been through, lo losing someone you love you realize that, you know, that is not the way life goes all the time and you cannot think your way out of things are that are that painful. And I'm sure your children are the reason that us, that's the reason that ushered you forward. You couldn't let time really stop. You have to get out of bed. You have to keep showing up for those mm-hmm. That you still love, that are here and that love you and that look to you. And yeah. It's tough though. It's, it, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's one day at a time for me still. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. One minute.

Ashley: 8:43

One hour. Exactly. Build a one day. Build a one day.

CJ: 8:48

There was a couple of things in there that you said that I want to touch on, and I do want to get back to the story, but you're bringing up so many amazing, important things and that's you know, how many children do you have? I have three. Oh, what are their ages? You know, my youngest passed away. That uncomfortable feeling that people come up against. I so my wife she passed away from metastatic disease, so she had it for five and a half years. And through that I. There was always like it always came up in conversation, right? Of, of like, you know, my wife is dying and things like that. Like it, it found its way into conversation and I would watch people squirm. Mm-hmm. I, I ended up almost making it a game to be like, how uncomfortable could I possibly make people? Because there is just this, this sense of, I can't hear those because I can't grapple and deal with it myself. You know? I know that everybody's experiencing that, but especially after my wife died and they find out, it really felt like there is a non-significant amount of interactions that are uncomfortable because they don't want to think about it themselves. You know, like, I'm sure you've heard like, oh, I couldn't, I couldn't go through that. I couldn't do what you did. And it's like, well, we don't have a choice. None of us on this call had a choice to lose our loved one. I'm not strong. I'm just getting up and I have to keep moving forward because the alternative is, I don't, and, and I think it's important to, to call that out. Which then brings me to that last point where, uh, you were mentioning, you know, my kids, you know, likely were the ones that helped me move forward. And I'm listening to you talk and we've just started talking, but I can already like sense the the gravity of that for you of like, well, I need to get up and I need to keep being there for my loved ones who are, are physically present with me. And I'm curious about that because for me, I used to get angry when people told me that. And I would be like, well that's fucking bullshit, because I wish they didn't have to lose their mother and I wish they weren't here. And it makes my life harder and I would get so angry. And it wasn't until maybe I. I don't know, last year, maybe three years into it, when I finally kind of took a breath and got out of that fog and was like, oh no, they definitely got me up. I don't know what would've happened to me had I not had that to keep me going. And in many ways, like it kind of masked some of what I was going through. Like, I never realized I was depressed until like three months ago. My therapist, I, I started seeing a new therapist. Mm-hmm. And I, I went to her one day and I was like, I think I'm depressed. And she's like, yeah, you're clinically depressed. And I was like, but I just thought it was grief. You know, I thought it was normal that I'd go to bed and cry every single night or mm-hmm. This or that. Mm-hmm. So what was that experience like where you talk about getting up to be there for your loved ones who are still physically present. Is that something you've always had? Is that something you had to grapple with? Is that something you had to learn?

Heather: 11:55

I think for me. When I say I had to move forward with the kids, it looked at, it looks as simple as getting up in the morning and making them breakfast before they go to school. That's right. Yep. Yeah. It didn't need to be anything big. I, I you know, it's funny because I, I can identify with everything that you're saying. Like if it weren't for them, I don't think I would've gotten out of bed. Yeah. I I, I just don't, it's like moving through mud, right? It's moving through mud, but you need something that helps to propel you through mud. That's

CJ: 12:30

right. Yeah.

Heather: 12:31

Yeah. Wow. But saying all of that, and, and I don't like that when people, I didn't hear that as much from other people, but I can see people saying that to you. But what that doesn't allow for is for your grief. When people say that, it's almost like not giving or holding space. For your own sadness and your own sorrow. So, yeah. And I think with the kids, you know, we all experienced grief in different ways. They lost a sibling and that was their baby sister. Yeah. And I think I had to at times think about that. Mm-hmm. And how they're feeling instead of how I'm feeling in this moment, making eggs and just being showing them love and, and little ways here and there and that, that was my way of moving forward. Nothing too big. And thank God my husband, he he's, I feel like we were a seesaw, especially when Parker was diagnosed. It was like when one of us got really down and like. In deep despair. The other one would be like the cheerleader. No, we've got this new, you know, treatment plan or we've got this going, or we're gonna try this and this. So, but when we hit into grief and losing a child, yeah. There's no solution to that. Mm-hmm. You know, so our seesaw just kind of, I feel like we were both at the bottom, but my husband had a job he had to keep getting up in the morning and doing his job. And just the, that routine, that discipline of that is probably what propelled him forward. Mm-hmm. But I think he was really holding us all together, just having that. And that's that, honestly. And I say that that's a privilege actually, that, I mean, I teach yoga and I run a nonprofit now, but, i, I have a friend who lost her son who had to go, she was a pharmacist and had to go back to work fairly soon after.

CJ: 14:38

Mm-hmm.

Heather: 14:38

And I do think it, it helped her some just to keep her mind busy, but, uh, yeah. So I think having a husband who got up, there's some mornings I would go get up with the kids and then go back to bed and he kinda ran the household during the day.'cause he's, he works from home and Yeah. And he's there and he is available, but Yeah. But there's just no solution to grief. No. And I think that was really hard for us is, uh, in a marriage like that dynamic shifting to, there's nothing to fix. And having to sit in that, that deep longing of. Your child. Yeah. That, that deep, deep longing to be with them again, your loved one. Again, nothing really solves that. Nothing makes that feel better. And it's, you know, it's the polarity of love, right? There's, uh, there's no grief without love and, uh, and you can't have love without the potential potential for grief. So they go hand in hand. So I think the bigger and the deeper you love, the deeper the grief. When I would be just in a hate collapsed mess. Mm. On the floor or in the bed, I remembered that to just remember that this is me moving through grief and me processing. I. That, that love and not pushing it away not, not pushing it away, not covering it up, not getting busy with other things. Yeah,

CJ: 16:27

there, okay. There's a lot in there. Uh, you, you keep sparking all these questions. Uh, this is great. So, so many topics to cover. It's so many many, like, so many. I'm trying to keep track of my fingers so I don't lose I know where we, I

Ashley: 16:40

really, I'm like, I know we, we talked a lot about like sibling grief with a recent death to Jennifer who she lost her brother at 18, and just the dynamic of the sibling loss and the parents and dealing with that. So like, that's, that's one area too, that it's just definitely a really interesting dynamic, especially like you said, and you're like, the, the one thing I had to get up and do was like, make eggs or, you know, make breakfast for mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For the kids and, mm-hmm. Help them through, help them through their grief. Which is inevitably so different from what you, you are grieving. And I think also like kids, I was nine when I lost my mom. So, I think I was always concerned about how my dad was feeling, you know, like, it was kind of like, I was fine and not like fine, but, you know, I was a kid. This was, what was, this was kind of normal. I didn't know really much different until as I like continued to get older. That, you know, mom, your moms don't have cancer at nine or seven or six and they don't die at nine. You know, that's not, that's not normal. So like even, I mean, to this day I'm like, I'm, I'm the one that is always making sure that everyone around me is okay. And I'm sure that that comes from, you know, what I experienced as a kid. But in. It like in retrospect, and I, I don't think I ever questioned whether this was the case or not, but like my dad was getting up every day and just making sure that I was okay. Mm-hmm. Whether, whether he was able to, you know, fake the biggest smile on Tuesday versus Wednesday or not, you know? And so it's really such an interesting dynamic of how everyone in the family processes grief and processes the loss you know, differently, but together.

CJ: 18:28

Mm-hmm.

Ashley: 18:28

Ashley, are you the oldest? Yeah, I'm, I'm my dad's oldest. My mom had my oldest brother. So my oldest brother is my half brother, but I'm my dad's oldest. Okay. So, and, and the oldest in the house. Yeah.

Heather: 18:42

That sounds similar to my daughter. That's the oldest. She, yeah. I can see it when she's like, just that what's the word? I can't think of the word. Where you're like hypervigilant.

CJ: 18:54

Yeah, yeah. With

Heather: 18:55

like. Is mom okay? Are you sad? Or you know? Yeah. And you know, I go back and forth because I know if she sees that I'm really sad mm-hmm then I'm, I'm afraid she's gonna be sad'cause I know she worries about me. But at the same time, I think it's important to show sadness'cause that gives her permission to be sad. And but I also know that she deals with that same dynamic that you did. Is Dad okay? Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I wanna make sure dad's okay. And then that dismisses really how you're really feeling when you're always looking out. So anytime I am sad in front of the kids, I'll tell them why I'm sad. Well, I just saw a video of Parker that I hadn't seen in a while, or I found that, you know, a picture of her or a quote she said, or you know, I just really miss her. You know, I'm just really missing her. And guess what? Kids are pretty resilient. Like, I, I, I will say, when I share with them, they are, they receive it.

CJ: 20:06

Yeah. You know?

Heather: 20:07

Yeah. A hundred percent.

Ashley: 20:09

Mm-hmm.

CJ: 20:09

Yeah, I think it's I think it's a beautiful way to handle it. I, I do the same thing. Even when my wife was diagnosed, we never hid it from them. Uh, obviously, like they were younger, so we tried to explain it in ways that they could understand. But when I'm sad, when something's wrong, when I'm overwhelmed, when I'm angry, anything you know, my kids are perceptive and I don't want them to think something's wrong with dad. And I'm like, no, I'm fine. And them not be able to trust themselves. I want them to be able to be like, I saw this, I recognize this. Mm. Now I feel validated. I. And similar to like, you Ashley, and then what you were talking about. Heather is, I remember it might have been the first or second. No, it was after the funeral. So it was two weeks after my wife died and we were driving to my sister's house and my daughter got in the front seat. She's my oldest. And, and I could just see her trying to fill that spot Oh. Of my wife and to be like, I need to take care of dad. I need to make sure that he's okay. I definitely does that. Yeah. And it was just like so natural for them to do that, for her to do that. So I spend so much time and I, I continue to, when it comes up to be like I am, I have my own support system. You guys have to deal with your own stuff. You don't have to take care of me because I'm having other people help take care of me. So that way I can take care of you. Because I do think kids just naturally want to like help and to be there, you know, biologically there's just like this drive to be like, if my parents aren't okay, then I'm not okay because their world will collapse. We are their work. Yeah, yeah. So which I'm then curious about how there is with your two other children, like you mentioned, trying to help support them in their grief. It's been a couple years now. Have you had the experience of watching them go through something and having to question, is this just childhood stuff or is this the grief and the trauma from the grief? Because that is something that I've had to tease apart many times already and like recognize it might just be childhood stuff, but they only have language of grief. I have to figure out which is it, because it's two different approaches.

Heather: 22:37

That's such a good question. So I have two teenagers, and as you know, teenagers are emotionally can be a lot. Yes, both do. So teasing that out is quite hard. They're both, they're very different from each other. Mm-hmm. My oldest is, uh, I think she's the one that's always making sure mom and dad are okay. And she's a very motivated smart, bright uh, intense at times, child, teenager, and, so we've run in, we've run in into a few little hiccups here and there as you would with any teenager. But I agree, it was always like, I was trying to figure out is this just typical teenage stuff peer stuff, or is this grief? And I would say with her it's probably a little bit of all of it. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. All of it just kind of mixed in. And then we do have support for them other than mom and dad through therapy. Uh, at least for my older daughter. My son on the other hand, his grief has been very internal and he seems to be a more reserved with it and not as vocal about his feelings around his loss of his sister. And the two of them were very close. They were 20 months apart. And, i, I think it's really painful for him to talk about her, and I think he can be avoidant. We've, he's had some physical physical issues, not, not too long ago. Some things going on with his digestion and we're trying to figure that out. And of course, we've done all the tests and nothing has been revealed. And that could be just his, you know, that mind, gut connection. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Of you know, the kids have gone through the loss of their d their sister, but they've also gone through a lot of trauma with everything they, they've seen through that cancer journey. And, uh, you know. I think he will eventually work through that. And I'm trying not to push it.

CJ: 25:02

Mm-hmm. But

Heather: 25:02

the way I do it as a parent is I try to integrate her into things that we do as a family. And I still talk about her. I'll say things like, what do you think Parker would like about this movie? Or if we go somewhere and we're like traveling, or, what do you think Parker's favorite place would be? And do it more in a lighter fashion so he can be engaged and just like talk about her. I think he shows his love and his sadness more. And little things he does in that, like, for instance, for a while to get into his phone, the code was her birthday and then the picture of his like screensaver. And he is a 15-year-old boy. He has a picture of the two of them, and they were little,

CJ: 25:46

oh.

Heather: 25:47

Yeah. But I think he's quiet in his grief and I'm, I'm, I'm allowing for that because that's just what his looks like. Yeah. It's, it's not right or wrong, it's just, it is what it is. Yeah. My daughter is very expressive and she writes a lot. And at our, we do a gala for our nonprofit every year that was started after Parker died, and she speaks at the gala and she gets to talk about her sister. And I think that's her way of showing expressing. That's amazing. Yeah. Her love and the grief. So yeah. It's funny, all, you know, there's four of us in this house, and our, the way grief looks like for each of us is very different.

Ashley: 26:29

I think that's beautiful. That's our way though.

CJ: 26:31

It is. Yeah. So,

Ashley: 26:33

so often, so often. Mm-hmm. I think it's like, you know, if you don't talk about it or if you don't do this or you don't do that, you're not properly grieving and, uh. Despite being the, the oldest daughter and definitely worried about, you know, everyone around me. Like I definitely was more like your son in like mm-hmm. The quiet mm-hmm. Quiet ways and still to many, uh, in many ways, aside from speaking on this podcast, every episode I, I very much am that way. And interestingly, my husband and I were just out to dinner because his dad died when he was seven. And today's his dad's angel anniversary, death anniversary. And both of us, both of us definitely like grieved our, the loss of our parents in a very similar way. He was seven and I was nine, but both essentially the oldest child, uh, or yeah, in a, an oldest child in a way. I will say. And like both very much, just, we recognize the days and. When we talk about our kids that we'll have, or just in general, like, we'll, we'll bring it up, but it's not like, I don't know, it's not, it's not something we like overly talk about. Mm-hmm. I would say we talk about it to like a very healthy extent. But it's not, you know, it kind of was, I think I was saying to him, I was like, it was, you know, as I was like forming my identity, like this happened. So it's always been me, like, as far as I, as far as I know me, it was like me with mom that passed away or mom that was sick. Yeah. And so it's like very interesting even as like my siblings and I have gotten older to see how, you know, we continue to grieve and continue to like honor and remember our mom. Mm-hmm. And is different as well.

CJ: 28:26

Mm-hmm. Yeah. With the, the family dynamics. Going from a, a family of five to a family of four and then everybody grieving in their own way. And then you were mentioning your husband getting up and almost kind of like keeping things going. Mm-hmm. For some of those moments. Mm-hmm. Have you learned how to be a family of four now versus a family of five?

Heather: 28:54

I think finally I feel more connected as a family of four. It took time. Now that is what that has definitely shifted over the last two and a half years. The first time we went out to dinner as a family of four, I'll never forget we were driving to LA and we'd stopped in Las Vegas. It was about a month after Parker died and we went out to dinner and I realized when we were sitting at that dinner table, it was four of us. I could not keep it together. Yeah. I just boohooed. I really did. And that was the, like, that just hit me really hard. And my initial knee jerk, which is not the healthiest, is to be like, I, it's, it's not the same. I don't want it to be a family of four. It's not the same without Parker. And, and you know, maybe I was a little avoidant of doing anything as a family of four.

CJ: 29:54

Yeah.

Heather: 29:55

Mm. Yeah. And like the last, the first two Christmases without Parker really hard because I am very traditional and I am from a south. And so you, you know, you make the same casseroles and you do the same kind of breakfasts and like the kids know all of that. And I was trying to make it just the same as it always has been, and it never felt the same. And it just really amplified the loss in her presence, not being in that house, especially during the holidays. And so this last holiday, we decided over Christmas to go on a trip. Oh. And we had so much fun. And I thought like during that trip, like, okay, we can do this. Like mm-hmm. Family of four. And I, when I say and this may sound woowoo, but when I talk about Parker on like, uh, if we go on a trip or something or watch a movie, I want them to still feel her spirit around us. So just bringing her into conversation allows for that. And. I really do feel like she's still with us. I really do. We've had some things happen where I'm like little signs from her. Mm-hmm. But I, I look at it like physically, yes, we're on a family of four and we're traveling to, you know, a, B, and C, but really I feel like there's five of us still here together and she's watching over us and I know she's watching over Maisie and Gates and but I just, this last Christmas was when I was like, finally had this feeling of I think we're gonna be okay. I think we're gonna be okay. You know?

CJ: 31:39

Yeah. That's amazing. It took me four years to finally like, kind of be like, oh fuck. Right. I have to figure out what a family of four looks like and not a family of five because we, we splintered off and we all kind of went and dealt with our grief. And it's not that I wasn't there for the kids or that we were family, but like we were all super independent. Mm-hmm. And everybody kind of was doing their own thing. You know, my kids are, are all teenagers now, and then we might get together and then, you know, I'm just trying to keep three kids going a house, two dogs and a job. So it was almost impossible to even have that space. But, you know, I recently finally went on medication, which was necessary for me, but that was its own long journey. Mm-hmm. And, and I finally had, I mean, and, and I'm talking like in the past two months, finally had the space to be like, right, we're gonna sit and eat dinner together as a family. We're gonna sit down and play video games or play a game. I'm like, I completely forgot that that's what we used to do. That's how we function as a family. Yeah. And it was lost on me. So it's, it's pretty incredible to hear kind of where you're at with that. That's why I asked. And, uh, the holidays too. They've never felt the same for us. Mm-hmm. And I was talking to my kids this year and I was like, does, does, does Christmas ever feel like Christmas to you? And they're like, no. And I'm like, me either. It's just kind of a, it, it's, it's gone. You know? My wife loved Christmas. Mm-hmm. Loved Christmas. Mm-hmm. And she made it so special. And the holidays just feel like a day where Yeah, we have to like, move through the motions. But I do agree with you. I think our loved one's spirit is still around. Hundred percent. I definitely had some experiences that. Were beyond my reasoning even when I didn't really believe in anything. Uh, but it was pretty intense. So, uh, there's definitely something there. It's something I'm still exploring with your grief. Mm-hmm. I, I, I wanna know some of the things that maybe you have done. You know, it's, I, I can imagine how heavy it's been knowing my own grief, but I'm curious in some of the things you've done to create and, and increase that container within you to hold that grief. And I'm really curious, you said you're a yoga teacher mm-hmm. If yoga has been a part of that, because for me I don't know why kind of do, but anytime I'm engaged in some type of mind-body practice, like yoga or things that are very intentional like that, a lot comes up for me and it, and it's been an unintentional part of my journey in healing.

Heather: 34:25

Yoga has helped me a lot. I think teaching yoga has really helped me a lot. I remember when we moved to Park City in 2020, in June of 2020. Parker was diagnosed in July. Mm-hmm. Of 2020. So I didn't teach yoga at all. Like while she was going through her treatment and then after she died, this yoga studio owner was like, I think teaching will really help you in your grief. And I thought, well, I I, I don't know about that, you know,'cause you're holding space for other people and what if I cry and lose it? And she's like, good. That's okay. You can cry if you need to cry. And I think what that allowed for in my grief was me to be able to put my grief down.'cause my grief was so heavy and all consuming throughout my day. That I had to put it down for an hour to go and show up for other people and be of service to other people.'cause you never, I mean, I know when you lose someone, it's like the worst of the worst of the worst. But everyone that is in that classroom, I guarantee you, has some kind of pain they're having to experience.

CJ: 35:43

Yep.

Heather: 35:43

And so I had to put my grief down. I had to show up for other people. And that was helpful. Now, saying all of that, there are a lot of times after teaching, I was completely depleted. I was like, I, I cannot, I'm just depleted. So I had to pull back a little bit from teaching and only taught one class a week for a little while until I kind of felt like I was back on my feet a little bit more, where I could be like, okay, I can take another class on. So that's helped. I think having a really good support system of people that are okay with you being sad, they can deal with the uncomfortableness of your grief. They allow you to talk about your loved one. They ask you about it. They say her name. Yeah. There's no round. The, the worst is when you're around people and they ignore it because grief as you, as you both know, grief is very lonely. Grief is so lonely. I'm sure you felt that in your house of four, your, you three kids, you have people that you have your two dogs. It doesn't matter. You still feel lonely in your grief because it's very personal. But when people say their names and they allow you to talk about them, it opens it up a little bit more. That container's opened up and it doesn't feel as constricting. And, and so that's helped I think sounds silly, but being outside. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Being outside and nature, I think nature allows space to hold grief. It's like, you know, it's just, just openness and, yeah. There's a connection I feel too with Parker when I'm outside'cause she loved, she was just a little, you know, she loved being outside in the dirt and like loved animals. And so I think it helps me stay close to her. And when I ever, whenever I feel close to her, I feel like my grief is being held. And family, I mean my, my family of origin. I didn't realize, like I'm the only one that lives outside of Tennessee. The whole rest of my brothers, my sister, my mom and dad are all in Tennessee. And I remember growing up in Tennessee being like, I cannot wait to get out of here. Like, I, I wanna live in a big city. I don't wanna live in the south and like a tiny town. And but now I really appreciate the love of my family and I, I, I think they fill my cup when I can get time to go visit more often. Mm-hmm. Like for instance, my sister and I, we really, every time we leave each other, we're like, okay, when are we gonna see each other again? You know, it's just like putting it out there so you have something to look forward to. And those are the people that love, love, love Parker. Like they love Parker and they share my grief so well, like. And, uh, and they knew her little spirit.

CJ: 38:53

Did you feel drawn to them early on? People who knew Parker?

Heather: 38:57

Oh, 100%. Yes.

Ashley: 39:01

Yes, for sure. And I mean, that was also a big loss for them too. A different, obviously in so many ways, but, you know, still, still such a loss for them. So I'm sure that they're also in a way, like just, I don't know, thrilled is not the right word, but to be able to continue to keep that spirit alive for you as well. Yeah. I'm sure that it helps them in their grief too. Yeah.

CJ: 39:27

Yeah.

Ashley: 39:28

Which is amazing that they, they bring it up because sometimes I feel like, I don't know if you, they're ready to say, but they don't wanna bring it up'cause they don't wanna like. Make you sad. Yeah. When in reality it's like, no, I just wanna hear her name.

CJ: 39:40

Yeah. We're already sad. Like, it's like we're already sad, it's not

Ashley: 39:42

gonna make it worse.

CJ: 39:43

No. It's worse when you ignore them. Right. But I had the opposite experience. I did not wanna be around anybody who knew me as CJ and Ariana. I just needed to be around new people who didn't even know who I was previous to her dying. It took years before I could like, start to be comfortable around my family or anybody who knew me before with her.

Heather: 40:07

Do you think that just intensified the grief when you were around people that knew you two as Yes. Yeah.

CJ: 40:12

Yeah. Okay. And I was constantly looking over my shoulder and at the door of like, where is she? Why isn't she walking through the door? Right. Like it's, it's, we're celebrating my, my niece's birthday. She's supposed to be here. You know, we're playing our games. Like all this stuff. Or just because there was that, you know, like that isolation, like you. That loss of identity. So I was, they wanted me and expected me to be somebody that they thought they knew, but that man died with Ariana, with my wife. And I was trying to discover who I was. You know, did I like, you know, X, Y, and Z or did I just like that because I got to do it with Ariana, you know? Yeah. Simple things like that all the way to who am I? Like literally, yeah. Who am I? And I'm still discovering that. And then you mentioned having people who can hold space like truly hold space for, for the heaviness and, and the intensity that grief can be. And I think that's very important. And I think it's, even though it's exhausting especially early on and, and holding our grief, I think it is, it is energy worth spending to find those people. I. They are rare you know, if Yeah. Uh, uh, relatively speaking. Mm-hmm. And, and I think they're special. I know my kids, I don't know if, if you or or your kids experienced this, but for my kids and I, there was a lot of moments where it's like, I, I wanna be dead and in, and I think on the outside it's like, oh, you wanna kill yourself? And it's like, no, I don't wanna kill myself. I don't wanna cease existing, but I just don't want to, to be here. I want to go see my, you know, the kids want to go see their mom. I want to go be with Ariana. I don't want this life. You know, and I think, and I think that those of us who have dealt with grief can understand that. And those who haven't can't. So then there's judgment that comes on it and like concern, you know, your, your son said he, he does, he wants to kid, you know, he doesn't wanna be alive. He wants to be dead. And I'm like, there's no need to panic. Like this is his expression of grief and it's understandable. So I, I think it's important to seek those people out.

Heather: 42:26

Oh, absolutely. I, I know that feeling. Exactly. And it's, it's a feeling of being trapped. Yes. It's like you're not going to hurt yourself.

CJ: 42:36

Correct.

Heather: 42:37

But you're, you're, you don't wanna be here anymore. You, you just don't wanna be here anymore. But you, you feel trapped because you have your kids and you've, you have to be there for your kids. Yep. I have to be here for our kids and also think about like, other people that love me, like my parents and my siblings and, but it's like this trap feeling like, God, I gotta keep doing it. And you know, people mean well, but people will say to me, just like you said before. Oh, you're just so strong. You're so strong. And I'm like, no, Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm not strong. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's just me trying to live life. Yeah. I don't know how else you do it. I didn't have a choice. That's right. Just like Parker putting one foot in front of the other. Right. And then like the references around Parker, uh, having cancer, like, oh, she's such a fighter. Oh, she's a warrior. All those words. It's, it's like, she's not going to war. She didn't choose to go to war. That's right. Like, right. This is like something that's happening to her that she has no control over and she just wants to live. So if that looks like she's in a fight or she's a warrior, maybe. So if that looks like I'm strong, maybe so, but it is just us living life. Period. Period. There's, that's all you can do. I mean, I, I, the only other option is what you say, you're gonna kill yourself, but. We're not, we're not gonna do that.

CJ: 44:03

It's tough. It's tough. And it's, it's the, the, it's interesting you bring up the, the war language that we have around, uh, especially cancer. But I'm assuming there's other instances and other diseases and stuff. But my experiences with cancer, and it was interesting because I was very unconscious to this, uh, even like after my wife died, and I think it was last year, I was talking to this man who who had cancer and, and he ended up, uh, being cured of it and uh, uh, or rid himself of it. And I was talking to him about my wife and I was like, you know, she lost her battle. And he called me out and he was like, she didn't lose her battle. She didn't lose, like, it wasn't a battle like. There was no win or lose in, in cancer, in, in the fight. It's something that she lived with and it was time, and eventually it overcame her. So it's, I've become so aware of that war language and that warrior language now of like, yes. You know, I could see that warrior, we need to replace this. Yeah. Like, we need to, to create new language around that experience of living with cancer and caring for somebody with cancer.

Heather: 45:16

Well, and and it assumes that the person that died gave up, right? The person that died. That's right. Thank you. Didn't do something right.

CJ: 45:24

Correct. Yeah. Even,

Ashley: 45:25

even at uh, the annual breast cancer walk, like in Rochester, the survivors wear cancer warrior. Like, there's signs, say Cancer Warrior, and I'm like, fuck off. My mom was a warrior. Right, exactly. Right. Like she just, she just got cancer too early. Like if she had now she probably have lived 10 years instead of five, or whatever the hell it was. Yeah, the Warrior. Oh, I remember thinking that when we were like, I helped plan the event, and I remember seeing that on our walk, like one or the, the run one time and I was like, what the heck?

CJ: 46:00

Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: 46:01

Like there's Warrior Sur, there's like Warrior Survivor and like, I'm running for, and I was like, wait to just like diminish the whole like I'm running for. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's like,

Heather: 46:12

yeah.

Ashley: 46:12

And you know, I know, I know in some cases, like I really like to like always like think of the best in people and that like the people, whoever created that, like either they hadn't experienced it firsthand or in some cases they probably did. I. Like they felt that that was like the right way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you know, as we have, as more and more and more and more of us are impacted by cancer or by, you know, losing a loved one to whatever it may be the language just has to evolve with it.'cause like it's, yeah. The warrior thing is exactly like you say, like, and, and I mean, even the war concept is just so flawed in itself because, you know, the people that do go to war, it's like, then there's a whole different like, you know, way in which they feel So the

CJ: 46:59

vets and stuff, it's,

Ashley: 47:01

yeah.

CJ: 47:01

Yeah. I, I just think we're so unconscious to the experience of grief. I mean, it's like I experienced that I was a caretaker. I lost my wife to it, and I was still using this language because mm-hmm. I didn't know any other way. So that's just, yeah, that's way we did it. And that's the way people talked around me. So, you know, I think, like you said, Ashley, like it's not that, it's not that people are, uh, most people are intentionally doing things that hurt us mm-hmm. Or themselves. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, because there are people who are intentional, which I've experienced. But I think we just need to, like you said, we need to evolve. We need to grow beyond what we have now. We need to bring grief out of the shadows, and that's the point of these conversations. Mm-hmm.

Ashley: 47:40

Yeah. There's so many situations in which this applies to, in, in the sense that like, like has evolved and, you know, the, the, the rest of the world really hadn't evolved around with it, whether it be the la like language in which be the way we talk about it, or the laws mm-hmm. In which we're governed by, or wherever the heck it might be. And so it's like, it's just interesting that like. Obviously like, I don't know, way back in the day, which is like, how long ago was this? I don't know. It's like they didn't experience death in the way that we have. Yeah. Like, and that's why it's so, I mean, that's why we're all here is'cause we've experienced like, young, young loss, right? Like, not many people were losing their child that 10, 11, 6, 5 years old. Mm-hmm. You know, not many kids are losing their parents at nine years old. I don't know when the cut up was. I don't know when it like suddenly escalate with cancer and all that stuff. But it's like, it seems like the thing that gets me about grief and death is like, it still feels like death and grief has always been a thing.

CJ: 48:39

Mm-hmm. So like

Ashley: 48:40

why are we so bad at talking about it? And why are we so bad at like, putting the right words to it?

CJ: 48:47

We hide it. Right? Like we hide it in hospitals. We hide birth in hospitals. And way back when we lived in tribes and small units of, of people death and birth, like life and death were always around us. You grew up watching people die and watching people being born like I. It, it, you know, there was obviously other challenges with it, but it, we didn't hide it. And we do now because we, we need society to be polished. We need to put away the things that make us feel, you know, icky or hard. Or difficult in, in so many ways. And I mean, there's obvious benefits. Obviously hospitals, I'm not saying that, but it's like, it's, it's just a microcosm of like, us just kind of throw these things away. We don't wanna see'em. You know, we, we, we, we, we put people who are, are sick or are elderly, we put them into a place where it's like we don't have to deal with them. Mm-hmm. In some instances, obviously some people need that. But there was one minor thing, but it's something that kind of haunts me that I wanted to ask you, Heather. My wife, she would have to go into the infusion centers and there's the bell. And when you finished your last infusion and you beat quotes, beat cancer, you would ring that bell. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't know if you experienced that with Parker and being there and what kind of medicine that she had, but my wife would be so hurt by that because she could never ring the bell. She was never gonna be cured. There was no end ever for the rest of her life. She would constantly be on chemo and medication. Mm. And I wonder like, did you experience that and what your thoughts are? Because it haunts me because I, I can't live that experience. I don't know what it was like for my wife but I, I'm just haunted by it, by her sitting there being infused and just hearing people one after another, ringing the bell in all the years that she had to do that.

Heather: 50:49

Well, Parker rang the bell and clearly we know the outcome of that. She rang, rang the bell when we went to. It wasn't for chemo, it was for radiation. So we flew to Sloan, Sloan Kettering to have, she had to have full abdominal radiation done and uh, and so we were there for a month and she rang the bell after that. I will say I've never heard the bell in her infusion place in Salt Lake, and I'll, I don't know if they do it there. Okay. And maybe hearing interesting what you're saying about your wife, maybe that is, maybe there's some sensitivity around that. Yeah.

CJ: 51:30

When Parker rang the bell what was your thoughts at the time? What was the progression of the disease and like, where were you guys at the time? Like what is your thoughts on, do you feel like that was a good experience for Parker to have, for you to have, for your husband to have?

Heather: 51:47

I wouldn't say it was an overly celebratory experience. Yeah. Before she went to Sloan Kettering for radiation. She had had several rounds of different chemo through the summer, and her PET scan would always come back. Well, these two tumors are responding, but this one's not. Mm-hmm. It was always a mixed bag and I, so their next, their, their next thing was to do aggressive abdominal surgery and then do radiation. But her oncologist, who's a really good friend of ours now, was very honest about Parker's situation always. Uh, and he had said even if we do the aggressive surgery, and even if we do the radiation, the chances of us curing Parker's cancer are really small. Like he, and hearing him say that, of course you still do it all right? Because you're like, yeah, we gotta keep her alive and if this is what, even if there's a small chance that this helps, we're gonna do it. But I think underneath that is when she rang the bell, I looked at it more as like, you're ringing the bell. We get to go home. Yeah, we get to go home. We get to be with their, you know, Maisie and Gates, her siblings and their pets, and she'll be happy at home. I did not really connect that with like, she's cured.

CJ: 53:15

Yeah.

Heather: 53:16

I mean, I wanted to, of course I wanted to. I, and they were pretty, uh, so, you know, assured us that this was like a very effective treatment, a very aggressive, effective treatment. But she didn't ring the bell with a bunch of kids in the room. I would say probably most of the people in that room were. You know, above 70, a lot of them were there for radiation. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So there weren't any kids in there. And she, you know, kind of like, I remember she shied away from it after she ran everyone clapped. She was a little embarrassed, but she didn't, yeah. She didn't wanna be associated with cancer at all. She wanted to be a kid. Mm. She didn't want anyone to feel sorry for her. She wanted to go to school like everybody else with her wig on, and just play and do all the other things that normal kids do. She didn't want any, you know, she didn't want the attention around it. Even when I would say, oh, so, so and so sent you something and they said they're praying for you, she would say, why are they praying for me? There are other kids that you know are hungry that need to be prayed for. She really did not. Like any of the attention around it. And so I think that that spirit of that is kinda how she felt when she rang the bell. Yeah. But I can see the, the emotion, the defeat, the, the feeling of defeat every time your wife would hear that bell ring. Mm-hmm.

CJ: 54:51

Yeah. Because it's like they're

Heather: 54:53

winning. You're losing, you know, it's just constantly reminded that you're never gonna be able to do that. You're never gonna ever have that cure. So yeah. That's tough. That's really

Ashley: 55:03

tough. You know how our friend was recently diagnosed with, uh, neoblastoma and Oh yeah. She had posted a video a few weeks ago of her ringing the bell because she finished like the first round of radiation. So I feel like they might be trying to like redefine bell ringing. Yeah. Oh. Mm-hmm. Like, I do think that before it was like when you're NED. They ring the bell. And now I think they're trying to do more like when you finish the round of chemo, when you finish this or something.'cause like this was at Roswell in Buffalo and I'm pretty sure it was like she finished the first round of radiation, which on a very, very, very it's gonna be a long battle. With chemo radiation. She had to have like a whole surgery before she could even get the radia, this, this next round of chemo. And so I think they're trying to like redefine that, which I would love to like, find out for sure if that's like, kind of becoming a thing because I, I definitely, I mean, I don't, it's weird because like when my mom was like fighting, like, I don't even know if they had a bell, but like I've always associated the bell with like, you're cancer free.

CJ: 56:12

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Same. Mm-hmm. Same.

Ashley: 56:14

And, and so when I saw her and like literally I had the thought, like when I saw her ringing the bell, I was like. That's so interesting. They must be like, like redefining the bell. Yeah. Like you got through

CJ: 56:24

the treatment because it's not easy. Those treatments, it's are not easy. It's

Ashley: 56:27

No, they're not. They are, I mean they literally are like knocking your entire system out. Like that's like the point, you know? Right. So, yeah, and the radiation

CJ: 56:39

is rough. It, it just lasts forever and ever and ever. We went to, funny enough, Amsterdam to the Netherlands. We were on the plane and my wife had I think it was maybe a week or two before she finished her radiation. She would have to get it.'cause she had it in her spine and her rib, and we were on the plane and she thought she was having a heart attack, but it was just like the radiation was finally catching up with her. Mm-hmm. And she couldn't eat that whole trip. Every time she swallowed it was like she was swallowing the sun. Those treatments are, are no freaking joke. But it was interesting to hear how Parker was like, I just want to be a normal kid. And it reminded me, my wife, she's like, I just want to feel like a normal person. There was one instance, uh, I always, like, I was the budgeter. She was the spender in our relationship. So I'm always like pouring over the numbers and making sure like, Hey, we only have like a hundred dollars left for groceries and all this stuff. And, and then in my anxiety, whenever we went over, it would always be a conversation. And I remember one day she was sitting down and my wife, if you knew her, I, I am the one that was very emotional in the relationship and she was the one that was very much like, eh, get over it. Yeah. And, uh, rarely did she ever cry or anything like that. And I remember we were in the kitchen, she was sitting down and I was just like, you know, getting, I started like getting agitated, like, why did you buy this? We can't afford this, and why are you doing this? And we have this much and then we have to save. And we, and like just going on and on and on. And then I noticed her eyes starting to get ready and the tears coming. I was like, oh, I fucked up something's wrong.'cause she never gets like that. And she said, I just wanna feel normal. I wanna be able to make mistakes and spend more than we have. I just want to do shit that other people get to do in their life. Not feel like everything has to be perfect and, and it hit so hard. And, and it changed kind of the trajectory of like how we lived our lives after that. So it was interesting to hear that Parker kind of had a similar experience of wanting that.

Heather: 58:48

It's funny'cause I think, uh, Parker was similar and also that she didn't, she almost liked when she'd get disciplined in the house because it wasn't like she was getting special treatment. Oh, yeah, yeah. And there's so much we, with you talking about your wife's, uh, radiation. There's so much suffering that goes along with that cancer diagnosis. I, I did not realize any of this. I mean, my mom went through cancer treatments actually, when I was pregnant with Parker, she had lymphoma and I was I, I didn't live in the same town. I knew that she, after chemo, she would feel pretty horrible. And the check in on her and. And, uh, but it, seeing it and living it with Parker, it is, it is just really, that's the trauma that goes around that diagnosis. It's, it's really tough and that's why we started this nonprofit. After Parker died, we decided that we wanted to raise money for research that's less toxic. I do think the cancer treatments are starting to shift, that that landscape is starting to shift in a, in a a, a more effective way and a less destructive way. But, uh, oh, it, it's just really, really hard to watch what that does. Yeah. And I think from the outside,

CJ: 1:00:17

people don't see that they, they just don't realize that they're like, oh, you're getting treatment, that's great. Mm-hmm. And it's like, okay. But like. You know, I, I spent five and a half years waking up every day and wondering what's the next side effect. You know, one of her, one of her treatments was possibly losing her sight. And I was like, when is she not gonna be able to see the kids anymore? Yeah. You know, when is she gonna you know, at some point a lot of people with her diagnosis, they had to live on Fentanyl, and I was like, is she ever gonna be at that point where she's just gonna be like out of her mind? Yeah. And then I'm like, what kind of a life is that? Yeah. You know, I mean, weird things like, one of them, she would lose her fingerprints. Like there's just, you know, like, and her hands would get intensely dry, like painfully dry. And I think yeah, that it's, people don't realize that it's like, yes, it's great they're getting treatment. Yeah. But it is awful and it is difficult and it creates trauma both in them and in those of us who have to watch and care for them. Mm-hmm. Now I know we are running a little along here. I appreciate the conversation. I feel like we could talk forever. I'm so grateful that you've been willing to share Parker with us Yeah. And willing to share this experience. I think there's a lot here. And I think it's really good that we got to speak on all these topics and I hope that it will help encourage others and educate others too. But before we let you go because we didn't get to talk a lot about like the beginning and all that stuff, but That's okay. I would love to hear, you know, one of your favorite stories about Parker.

Heather: 1:01:47

This was back in Charlotte. Oh. I mean, I have so many, I really am just going to give you a quick one. When we were in Charlotte, uh, it was raining like a hard, like thunderstorm, rainstorm, like lightning thunder, you know? And, and, and the rain was hitting the ground so hard that like the mud was coming up and she was worried about the worms. Oh, my. Because she knew if the worms came to the surface Yeah. The birds were in to come down and get'em. So she ran. I, gosh. So she ran out there in her bare feet and just like, did her best to like get her little hands in the mud and just tried to like, cover all these, these worms up. Oh my gosh.

CJ: 1:02:28

That's amazing. Yeah.

Heather: 1:02:30

Yeah. And she just, oh my goodness. I just miss her spirit, her love of like, yeah, earth, her love of animals, her love of life. Just that, right. Just that effervescence in the house. And she loved her people so, so much. I remember laying with her in bed, this was before she was sick, and I said, Parker, you are just so easy to love. Hmm. And she looked at me and she's like, I just love loving. And, uh, that's a beautiful hope. I think. And I think that is, uh, what she's taught me is, is to even though it's so hard, hard, hard to keep moving forward. Yeah. We're still here, right? So we're still here. Our people are not. And just to try to live in the same spirit that they had while they were here. And, uh, and we may have our off days, our off weeks, months. Yeah. But just trying to remember that and maintain that. And I. Live this in this way and the way she would've wanted me to and share who she was and share like, oh man. She just you know, she's just, she's my heart and, uh, I feel like a part of me is gone, but I've gotta live knowing that she's still close by and make her proud while I'm here.

CJ: 1:03:57

Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Appreciate that so much. What's the name of the nonprofit?

Heather: 1:04:02

It's called The Little p Project We called Parker. That was her nickname, little p. And we raised money for pediatric sarcoma research. We're working with Children's Oncology Group right now, and that's where the money's going. And then another portion of the money goes to Primary Children's Hospital in Salt Lake City. They were the ones that treated Parker and she got excellent care there. Unfortunately, a lot of the families that I have this diagnosis and are going through the same journey as Parker have financial distress. And so our nonprofit helps pay for their mortgage, their utility bills, whatever they need that will allow them to be with their child while they're going through treatment. Yeah. And, and it's like a two part, right? I think the first part is more of like, dad and I, we really wanna find a cure because at the end of the day, as a parent going through this, you just want your child to live. And the other portion I feel like is what Parker would want. She would want to help other kids. She would want to help other families. So I feel like we're able to live that on through her in her name and do good in her name. And, and create meaning? Create meaning. I mean, I don't think, I don't think there's any reason why someone dies. I, I, that's probably one of the worst things people can say is, uh, well, there's a reason you just don't know it yet, but I think the nonprofit's not a reason. I just think we've created meaning around, around her loss, so yeah.

CJ: 1:05:31

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And so well said. Creating meaning around the loss. I like that. Mm-hmm. That's, that's great. I'm definitely gonna use that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being on, Heather. It was so great to talk with you and we are grateful that you were willing to share and open up about this. We know it's a hard topic and you know, more of us that can open up than the more of us that won't feel so alone. Yeah. So it was great to have you on. I feel like we had so much more to talk about too, but that's all right.

Heather: 1:06:01

Yeah, no, thank you both. This has been a great conversation and it really has been so healing and therapeutic just for me to talk to you all and to have some of those shared emotions being seen and, it helped me. It helps me really feel less alone and, uh, appreciate what you all are doing. I think it is gonna make a difference. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about Parker.

CJ: 1:06:31

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