The Day After | Where grief stories connect us
At The Day After, we believe in the healing power of shared stories. Through our podcast, we create a safe space where individuals can find solace in others' experiences with grief. Having walked this path ourselves, we understand the profound isolation that follows losing a loved one. We're building a compassionate community where every story matters, where healing happens through connection, and where no one faces grief alone. Join us as we navigate loss together, finding strength and understanding in our shared journey.
The Day After | Where grief stories connect us
When Grief Arrives Early: Nickey's Reflection on Anticipatory Loss | The Day After Ep. 6
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In this episode of The Day After, hosts CJ Infantino and Ashley Infantino sit down with guest Nickey to delve into the profound and often challenging topic of anticipatory grief and loss. Nickey opens up about her intense five-year journey of preemptive grieving before the eventual passing of her mother. This journey was marked by the unpredictability and stress of receiving urgent medical calls and her efforts to manage her mother's care while living far away.
Throughout the conversation, CJ shares parallels from his own life, recounting his experiences with his wife's battle with cancer. The trio explores how grief manifests in unexpected ways, such as through anxiety, obsessiveness, and an altered perception of time. Nickey candidly discusses the complexity of emotions, ranging from anger and guilt to eventual acceptance and coping strategies, like therapy and writing.
As the episode progresses, the discussion touches on the importance of creating rituals and finding meaningful ways to connect with the memory of loved ones. Nickey shares touching anecdotes about her mother’s love for bingo, Journey's music, and cherished family traditions she continues to honor.
This episode provides a raw and relatable exploration of grief, highlighting the importance of community, understanding, and the capacity to live through and with grief. It's a poignant reminder that while grief is deeply personal, sharing stories can provide solace and a sense of connection.
Listeners are left with a heartfelt appreciation for the strength found in vulnerability and the timeless impact of love and memories.
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A personal note from the hosts: After much reflection, we've decided that this season of "The Day After" will be our final one. It has been a profound honor to share this journey through grief with all of you. As CJ steps back to focus on other ventures, we want to express our deepest gratitude for your support, your stories, and your willingness to navigate these difficult conversations alongside us. Though the podcast is ending, we hope the conversations about grief and loss continue, and that our episodes remain a resource for those who need them. If you've found comfort in our discussions, Ashley and Liz will continue Sit, Lay, Rest - our pet grief podcast - you can follow them on Instagram at @sitlayrest. Thank you for being part of our community.
Music by Servidio Music
I was, uh, on LinkedIn and I was in the middle of a very stressful, strenuous job search. And I was looking at a company called Empathy and. I was just so impressed by what they were doing in this kind of proactive approach to greeting, and I was really reflecting on the fact that I had, prior to my mom passing, I, we had been in a basically a five year. Preemptive grieving process as she was, you know, battling and I was like, man, that would've been so amazing and so helpful. And while I was there I saw your podcast and I just was like, that is so amazing that this topic is getting some discussion. And it's no one's favorite topic. You know, it's not a. It's not the best party, you know, party conversation starter or, or fun, you know, corporate icebreaker, fun fact, you know? So, so I just, I, I was really impressed by the fact that you're taking a topic that, that is, is really heavy and making it really relatable for people to access.
CJ:Well, I appreciate that, appreciate you being willing to come on and share a little bit about something that is, it's very difficult and like you said, not a lot of people are talking about it. Mm-hmm. But it is important for us to have those conversations so that way we, we know that we're not alone. While everybody's journey is different. We know that there are unique things to it and we can also learn from each other and help. Feel that empathy and, and that isolation. So, just really wanna like, get into you said you had the five year kind of anticipatory mm-hmm. Grief thing going on which was very similar to me. So it was five and a half years, uh, dealing with my wife's metastatic breast cancer. So is that kind of anticipation of when's this gonna happen? But maybe give us a little bit of like what that experience was for you having. That five years. Un until, until you lost.
Nickey:Yeah, it was so I was getting ready to board a flight to San Antonio for work. And I got a phone call from just an unknown number, uh, in Bakersfield, California. And my family, my, my mom and my grandparents and my aunts and uncles lived there. And so I was. Thinking, okay, I should probably answer this, not let it go to voicemail. And I got a phone call and it was from a, uh, it was from a doctor in the ICU and he said, your mom came in by ambulance. Oh. And we don't really know what, what's happening right now, but she's hemorrhaging and she's not conscious. Oh, she's lost a lot of blood and you're listed as Nexa kin, and I need you to authorize, you know, a blood transfusion, uh, immediately. And I'm like. Who are you? What's happening? So he said, you know, I, I don't know, but right now I just need you to say yes, that we can give our blood products and we'll try to figure out what's going on and I'll call you back once we, once we know more. So, you know, those first couple hours were really stressful because I didn't get phone calls back right away. I just kept getting. Calls from nurses asking, can I give more blood? Can you approve more blood? And I'm thinking, how much, how much more blood can you put in? Like there's only so much. And then by midnight that night, they said she. Had lost a significant amount. They had given her eight transfusions to that point. She was not, uh, she was not conscious. She was she was incredibly ill. She was, you know, in the ICU and they said, you need to get here as soon as possible. So I canceled my work flight to San Antonio and changed it and went to California and showed up at the, uh, emergency room at about. You know, uh, eight o'clock in the morning or something. And stood there with the doctors and nurses and they said that she had had burst esophageal varis. So, oh my gosh. Basically a, a pressure in the liver and the lower digestive tract builds up and the little varis in the digestional esophagal gets lower and upper GI tract, they swell. And if they get to a point where the blood pressure's too high. They just burst causing this hemorrhaging. Wow. And they said, you know, typically in these situations people get care almost immediately, but you know, your mom had a delayed amount of care and we're not sure that she's going to wake up. So they had us meet with a palliative care team. They had us meet with chaplains. All of our family came in. My brother came from Washington. All her, you know, nieces and nephews, we were all just. Waiting in this, in this hospital for about four days. It was actually her birthday. She was in a co, in a coma, you know, over her birthday. And so we were just sitting bedside, just waiting, waiting. And then on the fifth day, she just. Woke up. No way.
Ashley:We
Nickey:were going. Oh my gosh. Wow. Yeah, we had conversations about, you know, she wanted us to, to not keep her on sustaining measures. She wanted to donate her body to science. She was an incredible forensic nut. Like before it was popular, like now it's every, you know, true cram show and podcast. And it wasn't like that before. So she was super obsessed with forensics. But then she woke up and. Wow. Then we were on a totally different, you know, trajectory. It was like, well, how do we get you better? How do you heal? How do you recover? So, for the majority of the next, uh, while she was in and out of hospitals, in and out of intensive care, she had several, you know, other hemo genetic episodes. And then she was also battling you know, multi-organ failure with type two diabetes. And so, every time the phone rang. Right. We had no idea what, what the call was gonna be. She was living with my brother for a period of time and, and it just got so intense. Her care needs were so intense that she went into like residential living and she was doing fine in residential living. As you know, somebody was managing her medicine and her diets and, and things like that. And, she just decided that she was over that and she wanted to have her independence. She wanted to look alone. She wanted to be by herself and against all begging and pleading that she not do that for her best interest. She decided she wanted to move out, she wanted to be on her own, get an apartment, have her independence, and within I think a month of doing that, she was gone. She was supposed to go to a doctor's appointment to follow up. And uh, unfortunately my brother went to pick her up from the doctor's appointment. And when he went into her apartment, she was, she had passed away sometime between when we talked to her last, at about nine o'clock that night, and when he was set to pick her up at eight o'clock the next morning.
CJ:Holy. No, I definitely just wanna pause for a minute. That is. A wild story. I appreciate you sharing that. It is I feel like there was just so many moments there that you literally overnight could have lost her. Yeah. So dealing with that for five years Yeah. Is that's, that's an extreme level of anticipatory grief. I kind of just want to acknowledge that. I can't even imagine the, uh. The amount of like, angst that you would have. And you said, uh, you, you weren't living near your mom, right?'cause you were going to to Texas and you're She was in California?
Nickey:Yeah, I was living, uh, I live in Arizona and she was living in California with, with my grandparents. She was there and she originally, we grew up in Washington. Mm-hmm. And she left Washington, uh, when I was a senior in high school to take care of her mother, who had been really ill. As she was there taking care of her mom, her dad fell ill as well. So he had passed and she was there taking care of her mom. And then, you know, just her health had, uh, really deteriorated to the point where she got to where she was, you know, sick all the time. And she was having these minor episodes. She would call'em episodes, but she was basically coughing up blood, not knowing why. Oh. Oh, and just kind of writing it off as, oh, it's not that, you know, it wasn't that big of a deal. And, and then at to the point where it just became an absolute, you know, emergency situation.
CJ:So living in Arizona and like having to deal with that, having your phone ring, have, you know, something as drastic as that told to you? What was that experience like? Being away and knowing, uh, kind of the condition your mom was in?
Nickey:Yeah. When it first happened, I was just. In a state of shock. Really, and from the point I, you know, I packed, I was already packed to go somewhere else, but I just took that suitcase with me to the airport and I was taking phone calls from the emergency department at the airport. I was taking calls from my family you know, in the air for three hours not knowing if I was gonna land and get horrible news. Like I had no idea. And, you know, driving, getting to the hospital and. Meeting the doctors and it was all just incredibly surreal. And then over the next couple years, it just became a very normal experience. Yeah. In that I would get a call, you know, uh, your mom had to be taken by ambulance, or your mom is in the emergency room, or you know, we need you to give us permission to do, you know, X, Y, z. Or doctors would call and say, you know, this is our treatment, but it. You know, she doesn't wanna do that or can you talk to her? And then I would travel up there and I kind of felt like I had to play the role of like the big, you know, the big bad daughter that comes in from outta town and just strolls in. Yeah. And what's going on here and what is the plan and what are we doing? And, and you know, talking to doctors and nurses and specialists and, and paramedics and, you know, just, uh, run the gambit of care providers. And but the call that came in from my brother that morning, it was really, I was at work and the night before we had, all three of us had had a pretty contentious conversation about how when we can't reach her and we had to call her multiple times, like we start to worry, like, do we need to send somebody because. There were situations where my brother, unfortunately did have to, you know, go find her to make sure she was okay. And I told her, I said, you know, we do this because when we don't know what's going on, we have to assume that one day we're going to find you, you know, passed away. And then the very next morning he went there to take her to a doctor's appointment. And that's exactly what happened. Wow. I just felt like just this incredible sinking feeling for my brother because he was there just experiencing all of it, and I was experiencing it too, but in a very different, you know, very different way. So I was just like, I stepped into more of a, from that, that point on like. Well, he needs a mom, you know? Yeah. Like, yeah. He doesn't have a mom, so I have to step in and be like a mom.
CJ:I my dad passed away from, uh, lung cancer and I was in I was en route to California actually, so I'm in New York and I'd have to fly back and forth for work. Mm-hmm. And I was getting ready to land in San Francisco. I was like an hour out and my sister's texting me, she was in Florida where my dad was, and she was like, you gotta get here. Now. The nurses are saying you need to, you need to get here now. It's not gonna be long. So I had that, like same, a similar experience. So I like landed. Mm-hmm. Went right to the ticket counter. I'm like, I need a fucking ticket. I gotta get to Florida. Yeah. And then just, I flew for, it was like 20 hours or something to go back, close the coast and I landed and he lasted another three months. Oh my goodness. It's just like, it, like to be in the air and to not know what is going on. You feel so helpless. Like more helpless than anything.'cause you can't even like, do anything. You can't call anybody. You can't, you can't clean, you can't do anything to like get that energy out.
Nickey:Yeah.
CJ:And I, so I can't imagine what that, what that would've been like. But I have a. Potentially, maybe an odd question but in my experience, I, I've seen quite a few people die. Do you think that your mom knew that the end was coming and that's why she wanted to go be alone?
Nickey:I think what it really was is that, uh, and I've had, I've had this experience with a couple other people in that we, we wanted the fight and the battle. To be one direction and she was over it. Yeah. You know, that's right. Like we wanted her to see the specialists and change the diet and change the lifestyle and be Yeah. You know, stronger and healthier and more, you know, spend more time with her grandkids and spend more time with us in a really healthy way. She was just like, it's my life and this is where it's at right now, and I just want to do what I wanna do. I don't wanna be on anybody's schedule. I don't wanna be on anybody's routine. And she was so, so thrilled to have that independence'cause she moved, you know, right outta high school into a marriage. To a military member and right into, you know, having two kids right into raising two kids, you know, so there never was a period of time where she just had her own, you know, space.
Ashley:Yeah.
Nickey:And then, you know, being in residential living for five years pretty much was just exhausting and dealing with the coming and going and the sickness and everything that, you know. So she just, I think she was just to the point where she was like. If that's what happens, then that's what happens.
CJ:My wife got to that same point. I found out after she died that she had told my sister like, I don't wanna do this anymore. I'm done.
Nickey:Yeah.
CJ:She never told me that she tried to protect me as much as she could, but there was that same conversation throughout the years of like, do this, take this supplement, eat this way, let's go do this. Let's go to this doctor. Mm-hmm. Let's go get a second opinion. It got to the point where I was becoming obsessive with it. I was like reading as many books and like to me in that moment I was just like, you need to do everything you can to stay here with me and the kids, and if you choose not to do any of this. Then you're choosing not to be with us. And I, and I got so frustrated and so resentful.
Ashley:Mm-hmm.
CJ:And we eventually got to the point where she was like, said the exact same thing your mom said. She's like, I need to live my life the way I need to live my life. I don't wanna do all that stuff. I want to enjoy the last remaining years of my life. And I was like, fuck yes, you're right. Like I couldn't see that perspective. I was so caught up in my own world. That it was hard to see that perspective.
Nickey:Yeah, I totally, I totally get that. And I'm, I'm, I'm an obsessive person by nature, like IOCD by diagnosis. But I would just, I would research, you know, I'd be up at two o'clock in the morning researching like trials for, you know, uh, you know, cirrhosis or liver transplants or, you know, and then she would. You know, change her DNR status every couple months to do not, and then she would change it back and then she would change. And so I'm like, I don't know what, you know, I don't know what to do and I would, you know, say, please come live with me and I'll take care of you. And she was like, no way. You will treat me. Like, what are your kids? And I'll be on this whole schedule and I won't be allowed to eat the things I wanna eat and do the things I wanna do, and, and I would just be so angry. That I, you know, all the answers are here and you could do all of these things and, and you just don't want to. And you know, yeah. We just, it's not, you know, it might feel like time for them, but it's never feels like it's, you know, time for us. So it That's a hard Yeah, it's a hard thing to let go of.
CJ:Yeah. Yeah. Without a doubt. So, uh, oh, and I wanna ask too, when, when did your mom pass? What year?
Nickey:She passed in December 19. I. 2019.
CJ:Okay. 2019. Okay. So yeah. Still pretty recent. Five years.
Nickey:Yep. Just had five years.
Ashley:And that's, that's like right before, right? As pandemic was hitting. Yes. So not only did you, it's, it's kind of been a little bit interesting to hear from people who lost someone like right before, and CJ's in that boat. Well one. Yeah. Dec no, you like that same year basically last year earlier. Yep. 2020. Yeah. You know, like people that have lost someone during mm-hmm. Start middle, end of Covid and you know, not around a global pandemic. Mm-hmm. Certainly a different experience to navigate as well, because at a time when you probably. Need other people at the same time. It's like when you need other people, but also when you need your own space, you know? So I think I could see so many positives and negatives to it, if you will, but probably far more negatives in, in my personal experience. But
Nickey:yeah, I, there were two, uh, there were two moments, like right around the pandemic where I had that thought, like. Okay. She, a hundred percent would've been like a patient, zero because she wouldn't have done the vaccine. She wouldn't have done the mask mandate. She still wanted to go to the grocery store in the gas station or do all these things like talk to all these people and pet all the dogs. And I'd be like. You can't, you wouldn't have been able to do any of that. Like
Ashley:Yeah,
Nickey:the first week of the pandemic, it was awful for everyone, obviously. But I'm great. You know, I'm grieving. I just got sent, you know, everybody got sent home. So I'm at home with just my family. My daughter got appendicitis. Oh my gosh. And so we had to go to the hospital and the hospital was on full covid. Lockdown you know, everyone's in the, the white hazmat suits and the masks and and I just had to be quarantined to her little recovery room. Mm-hmm. So they took her and I couldn't go with her, and they brought her back and we just had to stay in this one little room the entire time. And all I wanted to do was like, call my mom and be like. Mom, this is horrible. And the doctors didn't listen to me when I told them she had appendicitis in the emergency room and I had to yell at an ultrasound tech and she would say, of course you yelled at an ultrasound tech. You know, that's all I wanted. And I couldn't do it. And it just, it was so heartbreaking.
CJ:Yeah. That, so it was, my wife was dying during the pandemic and then did die, so I wasn't allowed to go to the hospital. So you couldn't see her? No. I would have to drive her and just sit in the car waiting. When she was in treatment, and then she eventually had ascites, so she was getting drained every week. Mm-hmm. And I just was never allowed to be there. It was, it was horrible. But you, you mentioned like wanting to call your mom in those moments, and I'm wondering, uh, what was it like, uh, and I, I'm gonna say the silence after you lost her, like for me. Coming back home. Mm-hmm. And having that silence, or you have those moments, you have the, the routine of things where you would've normally picked up the phone and called your mom. What was that experience like? What did that look like to experience that sudden gone?
Nickey:Yeah. I mean, we had a, a complicated relationship, obviously in the sense like there was just a. A massive geographical space in between us with her living in California or Washington and being Arizona for such a long time. But we talked on the phone all the time. You know, I would be driving kids to sports practices and telling, you know, telling her about my day or things that were going on, or, oh, we got a new puppy, or, oh, you know, you gotta come, you know, see the kids play soccer, or I got a new job just. There's a, there's a story that cracks me up about her because I was at work and I got five calls in a row from her, and I was hysterical. I was in the middle of a meeting and I'm like, I got five calls. I'm like, I have to leave something. Like she's, something is happening. It's gonna be, and I get her on the phone. Finally, I'm like, mom, are you okay? What hospital are you at? Did you go the ambulance? She's like, no, I have to tell you something.
Ashley:Like, no,
Nickey:what? She's like, I. Just saw a movie trailer where Matthew McConaughey is a stripper. I'm like,
Ashley:mom,
CJ:no way.
Nickey:I just fear for your life over here. Yeah, mom. I just left a 200 person meeting thinking you were dying again. And you wanna tell me about Magic Mike?
CJ:Oh my gosh, that's amazing. That's just not more
Nickey:than five calls in a row. It doesn't.
CJ:No.
Nickey:But just things like that. Like she'd call and ask me like, who's that guy in that show that I like and or, you know, just it was absolutely nothing. Or it could be absolutely everything, right? Like other relatives passing away or you know, her mom passed away be before she did. And so I had to go to California and be like. A family representative, right? Mm-hmm.'cause my brother couldn't travel and she couldn't travel. And so there was lots of conversation like, what did, what did people say? What were they wearing? What'd you guys eat? And like, just so there was, there was constant conversation and, and a lot of times too, it was, you know, playing mediator between her and my brother. And they have different, you know, ideas and concepts and just living together again, as you know, roommates and not like a mom and a son was like a complicated. Yeah, we talked about everything and even now, you know, on, especially like on my birthday, I don't get calls for her singing me happy birthday and I don't get I don't get those like little moments that you just take so for granted when they happen.
CJ:Yeah. What did you do to fill that space
Nickey:for the first little while? It was really difficult. The anxiety really took. Very strong hold of me and I was feeling just untethered. So I was like, I need to go to see somebody. So I went to a counselor and I was like, Hey, I can't sleep. I can't function. I, that's all I can think about is those 12 hours between when I talked to her and when I got that phone call. And I can't stop thinking about the words that I said or what I could have said differently, or, you know, why did it happen now and not, you know, like there was just this massive weight of unanswered questions and no amount of asking them was going to get me an answer. And I went down, you know, an obsessive pathway of trying to see if there was anything. From like a negligence or a malpractice that happened that led to this scenario. And and then I was like, okay, I need to do something healthy. So I was writing a lot I was writing and submitting to, you know, writing to different like online publications that do. Lifestyle or mommy blogging type thing. So I'm a writer, uh, by nature and I hadn't been writing very much and so I, I had told, you know, my family, I'm gonna start doing some writing as like a healthy outlet. So that was one of the things that, that I did to kind of channel some of that anxiety. But definitely seeing somebody was. Number one,
CJ:interestingly enough, yeah. I, I write and I wrote through all of it and continued to do that.
Ashley:That's one of the things that triggered the day after.
CJ:That's right.
Ashley:I love that.
CJ:The obsessive nature of those ruminations and thoughts can be so challenging.
Nickey:Yeah.
CJ:Early on, I would replay every single conversation in situations I would replay the moment that she died looking for clues, looking for answers, looking for. Ways in which I was wrong and what I could have done better and how we should have spent the time. And it is, it has been four years of that to varying degrees, the health anxiety now that I developed after losing her. And then my son had a tumor six months after she died. Oh my goodness. So I, I like developed this crazy health anxiety. So that obsessive nature of the thoughts. I'm just now. Finally getting myself to go on medication to help with that. I'm at the very beginning of this journey and has, it has been a little bit rough, but yeah, I, I agree. Like seeing somebody, having somebody help work through those, those ruminations, especially if you have OCD which Yeah. Is not fun to live with.
Nickey:Yeah. The health anxiety is, I mean, if they gave out. WebMD, PhDs like, like I, my friends joke'cause I will like diagnose them like, oh, I think you have, you know this or, mm-hmm Oh, it could be this. And like, let's dig into it. Or even for myself, I'm like, you know, after my mom passed and then pretty much all of the females in my family had passed in a short period of time. And I was like, why is this happening? So I went and did like the 23 and me with like the full health. I need to know my entire lineage of like what is possible and how do I prepare for it. And yeah, the health, the health anxiety, especially during Covid, I was really, really bad.
CJ:Do you, uh, get anxious when you get phone calls?
Ashley:I still do. Mm-hmm.
CJ:Yeah. Yeah. Same.
Ashley:My one friend has, uh, as well, like, it was like the one, it was a similar situation where was getting phone calls from doctors and. You know, like how, uh, apple has like the, you know, silence, she's like, I can't do it. Like, even now she's passed. Mm-hmm. But like, I just can't, I don't wanna miss, I don't like, what if I miss a phone, an important phone call. And I feel like I have a little bit of that, even though I didn't have any sort of situation where like, I mean, I didn't have a cell phone when my mom died, so, but I, there's still that element of like missing that moment, which I feel like some of that, like ruminations that we were talking about, like also. Was maybe triggered by that. Like, oh, a lot of my like head stuff in terms of like thinking, like overthinking is like, did, did we make the most of that moment? Like, shit, yeah. What if we don't have this moment again? Like, it's like, okay, just fucking relax because you're overthinking, like not living in the moment that you're like not actually living in the moment. And I always get, I always catch myself and I get, so then I get like even more mad at myself. I'm like, you just let, like worrying too much about. Enjoying that moment, or not being on your phone. Or being on your phone. Too much fucking moments. Yeah. What the heck? Without
CJ:a doubt, it's such a cyclical like head space to be in. Yeah. And it's, it's so hard to break out of that.
Nickey:Yeah. Every time my dad or my brother called me, I immediately, I'm like, what's wrong? And they're like, I'm just calling. I'm like, no, what's, what's wrong? What's going on? Is something happening? And sometimes, unfortunately it is, it's bad news. But yeah, if that, if the phone is ringing and I'm not expecting a phone call, like especially, you know, my kids, I have three kids. If the school's phone number comes up, I'm like, oh my gosh, same. What's happening? Like, it just instantly I can just feel my heart, just start racing before I've even, you know, picked up the phone. So.
CJ:Yeah, I'm the same way too. And I've gotten bad calls from school. My son like ended up breaking his wrist and then, and then all this stuff. And I'm like, come on. And we were, we just started skiing two weeks ago and the second day we were out, he broke his arm again. Oh no. The same arm.
Nickey:Oh my gosh. That happened to my daughter.
CJ:Yeah, it is wild. Like, and I'm like, what the fuck, dude? Like he broke his arm, got an infection all over his face and got sick within two weeks. Oh my gosh. So now he's an antibiotics for two months to try to clear out this infection. Oh my gosh, God. But it's that same like visceral reaction. So I'm like running around in my ski boots trying to find ski patrol to get him there. And it's just, even if it's not. Like a life-threatening situation. My body feels like everything is a life-threatening situation.
Ashley:Mm-hmm.
CJ:It's so frustrating. Yeah. But the past five years, as you've kind of gone on this journey and have experienced a vast amount of emotions and kind of progressing through this, what, what has that looked like for you and what have been some of the milestones in your grief where you're like, oh, something has changed for the better, that's more beneficial now, and how do you view your grief?
Nickey:In the beginning it was just a lot of, just haze and confusion. Mm-hmm. A lot of anger, a lot of guilt. Also, I just felt so incredibly guilty and that took quite a while to get over. And I just you know, working through, uh, you know, with counselors, like how do I, how do I still live? Every day, everything that I have to do, like I have to get up and go to work and I have to raise these kids still, and I have a husband and I have all this like responsibility and how am I supposed to do that with all of this feeling inside. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I did, you know, a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy. I'd got the I read a lot of books. I got the grief handbook. Which was really helpful to, uh, it's kinda like a journal of how you're progressing through grief in the different stages. Oh,
Ashley:interesting.
Nickey:Yeah, it's, it's a great tool. I recommend it to anybody going through it, especially in the beginning phases. But I found that it, it definitely helped me, uh, well at the beginning I really needed, I had to compartmentalize. Where there were times where I could let myself just be a total mess. My mom always used to say that when I was a little kid, I'd be mopey or grumpy or having a bad day, and she'd go, honey, maybe you just need a good cry. And I'd be like, well, I don't even know what I wanna cry about. Like, you'll find something like, it'll just come out. So there will be days where Love that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Really cathartic, you know? Yeah. Just like, okay. And, so I compartmentalized, right? Like there were times where I would say, okay, I'm gonna listen to five sad songs and I'm gonna cry and, and, or I'm not gonna, I'm gonna try to do something that she really liked to do and I'm gonna muscle through it and I'm not gonna cry. You know, I'm gonna make sure my kids. Really feel that love, that's like a, a generational love coming from you know, their grandparents who are still here and how much extended family means to them. And just asking them, you know, do you feel loved enough today?'cause I wanna make sure that they feel that every day. And then and then just understanding more and more about. Mental health and the things that drive people to, to do the things that they do and act the way they act. So, mm-hmm. A lot of, you know, external research, a lot of introspection. There's still some things I can't do five years later. I can't listen to journey, don't Stop Believing, which is really tough because it's one of the most played songs of all time. Instantly, I'll just start bawling. I, what's significant
CJ:about that song?
Nickey:My mom loved journey. And when I say she loved journey, I mean loved him. Like if she could have kidnapped Steve Perry and kept him in a closet in her house legally, she would have the first time that she had her hemorrhage and she was unconscious, my cousin was playing Journey. The entire time in her ICU room.
Ashley:Oh. And
Nickey:that was one of the first things that she remembered when she woke up, is she was like, have you guys been here the whole time? And we're like, yeah. And she goes, oh, I didn't, I remembered hearing journey, but I don't remember everybody being here. So, oh my gosh. She just loved them so much. And so, so that's, you know, one song I can't listen to. Uh, I just, now this on my last birthday'cause I turned 40. I was able to go back and listen to the last voicemail that she sent me where she's saying Happy Birthday to me. And I just, I listened to it, but I just cried the entire time.
Ashley:Yeah.
Nickey:Yeah, you know, I got all her belongings from my, from my uncle, all her pictures and everything that she kept from when we were little kids. And just the things that she found to be sentimental, like, you know. Understanding like why some of those things would've meant so much to her. And then just, uh, we were able to, a couple years ago, me and my dad and my brother were able to actually spread our ashes. So after Covid, after the pandemic kind, you know, we could travel and be together again. So my dad, me and my dad and my brother went up to this lake that she always talked about being like the prettiest place she ever saw, and it was the best camping trip she ever went on. So we went up to the lake and spread her ashes there together.
CJ:Oh wow. Is there rituals or meaningful things, whatever word you wanna put to that, that you do, to connect back to her or her memory? What is that?
Nickey:I do, uh, so my mom loved bingo. Like obsessively loved bingo. And she loved like the scratchers, like lotto scratchers. So every year for Mother's Day and her birthday and on Christmas, uh, me and the kids, we'll do the scratchers together. Oh, I love that. Yeah. And she, she had this necklace that I gave to her, uh, for her birthday one year, and it was her name in gold and it was like the same style of necklace that Carrie on Sex and the City had. And it's a Carrie, it was like a gold necklace. And she always talked about how like, I really want one of those, but those are probably like Hollywood. They're so expensive, whatever. And I'm like. I can get that on Etsy. So I got one with her name on it and I got it for her, and she was so excited. But then after she passed, my brother sent it back to me. So I wear it on her birthday. And I wear it on the day that she passed.
CJ:Oh, that's awesome.
Nickey:And yeah, I just try to do little things like that. Like I, uh, on our book, uh, on our mantle or like on our shelves at home, I keep, uh. Guess how much I love you, uh, the book on there all the time. Mm-hmm. Because she always used to say that that was like our thing. So she'd, you know, guess how much I love you? And I would go this much and she's like, yep. All the way to the moon and back. So, I keep that, you know, and I would read it to, you know, read it to the kids and so little, you know, little moments like that. And then other. You know, other moments where it's just kind of a silent thing. Like if we go somewhere, my husband's really big on like national parks, so if we go somewhere where it's just unimaginable beauty, it's like, oh, I wish she could have seen it. So you just have like a little moment to ourselves there.
CJ:That's amazing. Yeah. That's awesome. And it's awesome that you're keeping her memory alive for your kids. Like they will, they will know her through all those things. Yeah. I mean, you're doing. Everything you've described is you're doing an amazing job. It's not easy to do. I know that. It's really hard because life gets very, very busy and trying to take those moments is significant in a, in a busy, yeah. In a busy life. So that, that's incredible.
Ashley:Sometimes I think that we like minimize how those, those little things are really like keeping our memory alive, you know? My, my husband's dad died when he was seven, so yeah, he was seven. I was nine. And tomorrow is his angel ary death anniversary. So we're, we're just gonna go out to dinner. Normally when we're in Buffalo, we go for a beef on whack, but we probably won't find that here in the Netherlands. So, in the Netherlands.
Nickey:Oh
Ashley:my goodness, yes. Yeah, yeah. We're in the Netherlands for the year, so. So we might go for Indonesian, but the point around, you know, just, just making sure to celebrate it. You know, you don't have to do something big. But at, at least you know, you remember that day or honor that day. And honor, honor them. Yeah. And I think birthdays and angel anniversaries and even just days or holidays that they liked, I think is so important to. And I think we've talked about it before, it's like you don't have to do it every year. You know, sometimes it's like, this year I don't even wanna fucking think about it. Or like, this year I'm busy and we're doing something else. So, yeah. It doesn't always have to be such a big thing. But I also like, so resonate with like the songs, which weirdly for me is like, one of the hymns they played at her funeral and like, oh yeah, really? Yeah. On Eagle, on Eagle's wings or whatever. Oh my God. Yeah. That song, if it comes, I mean, I don't go to church like every Sunday. I mean, I don't go to church like more than twice a year, but see if that song comes on. I literally can't, like, it is like, it is like a light switch. Mm-hmm. Like I just fucking die. Yeah. I'm like, oh my God. It's so anytime. But they, it's often played at funerals and so anytime I go to a funeral, if I see that it's like on the like. You know the program? Yeah. Agenda for the day. The program. Thank you. I'm like, I gotta call, like right before that song comes on, I'm walking out. Because I, I know that we played it at her funeral and I can't remember like exactly when we played it. I wanna say it was when we were walking out and I was literally buried in my grandma's uh, like side, just crying. Mm-hmm. But it's also like certain smells for me that like, I, it's. I had someone give me like a a flower for my birthday a few years ago, and I felt so bad because it literally, I was like, the smells like the funeral hub. Like the day of, yeah, like the, yeah. And I, I, I, like, I knew, like, I think I had been talking about how I really wanted, was like a flower for my desk or something. And I had to tell my friend, I was like, I'm so sorry, like, eat, I'm gonna buy a different flower to put on my desk from you because I just can't like do this smell. So there's like very, there's certain flowers, and I don't even think it was the same flower. I just think it happened to just smell exactly the right, wrong way.
CJ:I mean, you say that and I can smell it right now. I know that. Now I know what you're talking about. Mm, yes. Mm-hmm.
Nickey:I know I was in target with my mother-in-law like a couple weeks ago, and somebody walked by me and I could just the perfume, and I was like, oh. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And my mother was like, are you okay? And I was like, oh, that person is wearing my mom's perfume. I'm like, I'm gonna have a, I was like, it got all hot. And like,
Ashley:yeah,
Nickey:I'm gonna cry. I know I'm gonna cry. She's like,
Ashley:okay. Yeah. Yeah. Those like the, I think the scent was like the biggest thing that was, uh, a little bit of like a mind, mind buck for me. I was just like, whoa. Like, how does this, like bring you back? But I mean, I'm pretty sure there's like a lot of research or science behind it, but it's still just mm-hmm. It was, it was it also obviously caught me off guard in that moment, but I, yeah, it was wild.
CJ:Yeah. Smells haven't been big for me. No, but definitely no, and I don't know why. But music. Uh, TV shows where I used to never rewatch shows, ever so against it. I'm like, this is terrible. I don't wanna waste my time After my wife died, that's all I do is rewatch the shows that we would watch. Mm-hmm. And just cry at those even comedy shows. And I just ball. And then the other thing that really gets me is my daughter, so she's 16 now. Mm-hmm. And she looks just like my wife and her mannerisms are the same. Like the way she jokes with me is the same. Yeah. Like her humor's the same. And there are moments where literally I have to do a double take'cause I'm like, holy shit, you look just like your mother. Right. Where it like, just brings me right back to'cause we were high school sweethearts, so we'd started dating when we were teenagers. So it just like, it just brings me right back. So that, that's a huge thing for me too. But, what are the challenges that you found that surprised you with grief?
Nickey:I, it's the biggest challenge, I would say for the first year. I probably for the first year was just existing. Yeah. Just, yeah, like, just knowing every day. It was a day, especially the, the, the day, a right day right after everybody got up and got to do what they got to do, you know, every, everybody got their coffee and went to work and went to school and sat in traffic and had to pay bills and did all the things. And I was just, IM completely immobilized and I felt so guilty because my husband and I were taking a vacation that we had planned for almost a year. We were getting ready to leave that next day and I was like, I can't go on this vacation. There's no way. And my, my brother's like, mom wanted you to go like you. You totally have to go. Like, this is the first time you know, you and Jordan have been alone forever. You gotta go. And I was like, I can't, there's no way I can go. And so we went and then I was just like,
Ashley:that's so hard
Nickey:there but not. But not there. Yeah. And then coming back and then going up and doing the ceremony and then like, okay, how do I get back to a point of just functioning where I'm not breaking down every single day? And I knew it was gonna be heavy, but I think the part that I struggled with the most was that it felt so heavy because I had five years. You know, and you might relate to it as well. I had five years to get ready for this. Like it could have happened at any moment and almost did several times. Like this should not have been, it shouldn't have felt like a shock and it shouldn't have felt sudden and it shouldn't have felt like so, so shocking. But it did. And I felt bad in a sense that I was so upset by it. But then I also felt this like tremendous grief, that it was almost a re A relief. A relief. Also relief.
CJ:Yes, yes.
Nickey:Yeah. I wasn't. Like I, I knew I didn't want her to be in pain. I knew I didn't want her suffering. I knew I didn't want me and my brother and our kids to go through that pain, but I was relieved and I felt so terrible for feeling relieved. Mm-hmm. Also, so it was just, yeah, it was there were just so many emotions that were bouncing around all at the same time that it got to, it took about a year to get back to a place where it was like. Regular, you know, homeostasis achieved with just this little bit of every once in a while, sadness coming in and sometimes bigger than others. But
CJ:yeah, I definitely can relate to that. Yeah, there was that guilt of like, I mean, immediately as soon as she took her last breath, there was this like weight that came off of me. Of like, yeah, okay, she's not suffering anymore. We don't have to go through this anymore. We can figure out life now also. Mm-hmm. But also the weight of it was crushing like every day. And I looked'cause I track all my, my health metrics and I slept on average three hours a night for an entire first year. And yeah, that haze that like not knowing. Like what one moment to the next moment's gonna feel like, what's gonna hit you, what's not gonna hit you? And like sorting all that out is definitely, definitely difficult. And I think a, a pretty common thing. Uh, do you feel like you got to say goodbye to your mom? I know she passed when you, after the conversation, but I think like, try to abstract that a little bit from the physical goodbye. Mom, do you feel like you got to say goodbye to her?
Nickey:No. And I say that because the version of our mom that passed isn't the version of my mom that I wanted or would've wanted to do. Like a big teary, emotional goodbye with. You know what I mean? Like I would've wanted that moment to occur very like. In terms of endearment, you know, holding the hands. Yeah. And honey, it's gonna be like, your life is gonna go on. You're gonna be amazing. And, and I'm gonna be here in every moment. And I, and that wasn't what, you know, that wasn't what we got. So. Yeah. I don't think so. And I, and I've felt like. That last conversation that we had, it ended. So, uh, you know, there was so much anger and frustration and love and passion all in the same call.
Ashley:Yeah.
Nickey:And then you know, I went to bed late'cause I was like stressed out about the situation and I knew it was gonna be a situation in the morning when, you know, when she got up to go to the doctor, she was gonna be upset and I was gonna talk to her after she was done. And then I. I popped awake at about three o'clock in the morning, just in sheer panic out of nowhere.
Ashley:Mm.
Nickey:And I didn't, I was like, I don't understand. Like, I just feel like I be like, I'm gonna bust outta my skin. I don't know what's going on. So it took about an hour and a half to kind sell back down and go to bed. And then you know, the coroner coroner's report said basically sometime between like one and 4:00 AM so I was like. Ooh. Is that like her way of telling me like, okay, I just left you and now I was like, I could feel that. Like yeah. String just being pulled and I was like, oh, I'm untethered now. Yep. I'm,
Ashley:yeah.
Nickey:In this moment I'm a fundamentally different person than I was bef when I went to bed.
CJ:Yep. Without a doubt. Yeah, and that, that is also a common experience. We. We change, we change who mm-hmm. Are. We have an identity crisis in the beginning. Mm-hmm. Yes. And we have to rediscover who we are. And that was one of the most surprising things to me, was feeling that of like, whoa, where did I go? I don't even know who I am. I don't know who that person is looking in the other side of the mirror. And it's just been scary. Well, if you've been a caretaker
Nickey:for so long.
CJ:Mm-hmm.
Nickey:Yeah. Now what do you do with all exactly this time and energy. Yeah.
CJ:Yeah. Yeah. It was wild. But we appreciate you sharing. Before you go, uh, if you want to, we would love to hear maybe a favorite story or a memory that you really loved that you had with your mom.
Nickey:I just love to remember when she was. You know the best mom, she was the best mom. All of the kids in her neighborhood's came to our house. It was the house that they felt the most loved and safe in. And you know, she'd bake everybody chocolate chip cookies and make hamburger straws scratch. And, she'd make a full Turkey dinner in July, because why only have that big meal once a year? Oh my gosh. When you can, when you could have Turkey for a week and you don't have to turn on the oven, you know? She worked at a pet store and she just, we had so many animals at our house. She would just bring home all the animals. We had so many animals in our house. And yeah, she just. She was just, uh, she was hilarious. She was just so funny and so vibrant, and and ev everybody who knew her just loved her so much.
CJ:Do you now have animals for your kids? I have.
Nickey:There's no, well, there's no way that. I could have that many animals and I'm so allergic. Okay. All are so very allergic. I have one dog who's, who's thankfully hypoallergenic. But we're kind of a one animal at a time. I mean, our, our front and backyard was like a pit cemetery. Like it, we had so many animals. Oh my gosh. Wow. And not like the long lasting kindies. Yeah. So fish and birds and hamsters and ferrets and cats and dogs and. All kind. Just everything. So yeah, if there was a, if there was an animal around, it was automatically drawn to her. She just had a magnetism for it.
CJ:That's amazing. Oh, that's, that is amazing. That's so awesome. Well thank you. Like I said, thank you for coming on. We appreciate Thank you folks so much. Yeah. We're just grateful that you're willing to share. I think it's really good for other people to kind of hear and normalize grief. Yes, it needs to be normalized, so absolutely. Without people like you, we couldn't do this. So thank you so much. I'm glad we got to work this out and we appreciate you sharing your mom with us as well.
Nickey:Thank you for being there in the community for people like me who were desperately searching for somebody, having a relatable experience. So I thank you both so much.
CJ:Thank you for listening to this episode of the day after you can find this podcast and more at our website. WW Day episode a.
