The Day After | Where grief stories connect us
At The Day After, we believe in the healing power of shared stories. Through our podcast, we create a safe space where individuals can find solace in others' experiences with grief. Having walked this path ourselves, we understand the profound isolation that follows losing a loved one. We're building a compassionate community where every story matters, where healing happens through connection, and where no one faces grief alone. Join us as we navigate loss together, finding strength and understanding in our shared journey.
The Day After | Where grief stories connect us
The Harvey Rule: Living Life After Loss with Ashley G. | The Day After Ep. 5
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In this episode of The Day After, host CJ dives deep into a conversation with Ashley G. about her personal journey through grief and healing after losing her father to a rare cancer. Ashley shares the profound impact her father's ten-year battle with illness had on her life, both personally and professionally. She reflects on the importance of using direct language around death to aid the grieving process and speaks candidly about her experiences navigating her father's diagnosis, treatment, and eventual passing.
The discussion also explores how Ashley balanced the demands of a burgeoning career, marriage, and motherhood while coping with her father's declining health. Both CJ and Ashley candidly discuss the complexities of grief, highlighting the unique path it carves for each individual and the necessity of embracing the full spectrum of emotions associated with it.
Ashley also opens up about her transformative podcast series on death and dying, inspired by her own experiences and desire to reduce the fear surrounding the topic. Throughout the episode, listeners are reminded of the value of living life with intentionality and appreciating the moments shared with loved ones. This conversation is a heartfelt reminder of the resilience of the human spirit and the enduring connection between life and death.
As a side note, co-host Ashley was unavailable for this episode as she moved overseas.
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A personal note from the hosts: After much reflection, we've decided that this season of "The Day After" will be our final one. It has been a profound honor to share this journey through grief with all of you. As CJ steps back to focus on other ventures, we want to express our deepest gratitude for your support, your stories, and your willingness to navigate these difficult conversations alongside us. Though the podcast is ending, we hope the conversations about grief and loss continue, and that our episodes remain a resource for those who need them. If you've found comfort in our discussions, Ashley and Liz will continue Sit, Lay, Rest - our pet grief podcast - you can follow them on Instagram at @sitlayrest. Thank you for being part of our community.
Music by Servidio Music
Um, thank you for having me. So I lost my father. Actually, I'm gonna pause right there because I, I think I told you I'm, I'm doing I have a podcast as well, and I've just finishing up a series on death and dying. And my last episode, which is actually gonna come out soon, is with a, a person who runs Death Cafes. I don't know if what are familiar with that. Yeah, it started in the UK and it's a nonprofit organization so you, anyone can throw them, throw them, I don't know. You basically get together usually at a coffee shop over like coffee and cakes and you just talk about, I. Death dying mortality. And the objective is to raise a consciousness of death in order to really focus on living your life. And and he corrected me because I was talking about, like, I use the term pass and he said it is better to just use the word like died or, uh, you know, just be like very specific Yeah. About it. Because part of our issues in processing death is that we don't talk about it directly. Mm-hmm. We use like euphemisms. Yeah. In different words. And in that way we're not grieving as directly. So I'm just trying to take that in because it was a recent conversation. And so I'm gonna start over and say my father died 10 years ago in September, so a little over 10 years ago. A rare cancer and ultimately he actually died from a failed bone marrow transplant. But, you know, it's all kind of wrapped up together.
CJ:So, and that was 10 years ago, you said? That was 10 years ago. That is interesting. The direct language. So I, I had that kind of floating around my head, but I never thought about it in relation to grieving and it's always been in relation, uh, so like hearing the direct language. In terms of grieving, I've always had it in relation to the, the kids of using very direct language of this is what's happening. Mommy's going to die. Mommy's dad, you know, she has cancer, she is sick, but it's something that you can't heal from.'cause a lot of what I've heard ran, run into and instinctively felt was, I don't want them to be afraid of being sick. Thinking that they're gonna die, right? So we tried to be as open as possible, but they were young and it's hard to fully understand that. But yeah, that's interesting in terms of our grieving and how that could play out. So, anyways, I appreciate you sharing that. And then going back to your dad, where were you? Was, were you in the same place as him? Like, what was that experience of him getting diagnosed and going through all of that for you?
Ashley G:Yeah, so my father and I, uh, I don't like using the past tense. We were very close. I mean, I still feel very close to him, but we were very close and people would say, I was just like so much like him. And so I am, I'm not practicing law anymore, but I was. Lawyer. I am a lawyer. I was practicing for 20 years. My father was a lawyer. Mm-hmm. I lived, uh, my parents split up when I was young, but I lived during law school with my dad and my stepmom, and it was like the most magical experience. We were, would talk about my my classes and the cases I was reading, and he would remember everything. It was amazing. So we both lived in San Francisco when he was diagnosed and, and when he died. So for the, for the 10 years I, we lived in the same city, which is really a blessing. And I spent, you know, a, I would say a lot of time with him, although I had young children of my own at the time, which as you know, is, is very time consuming. And I was working more than full-time as well. Yeah. So, you know, there were limitations, but I was present. I was very present, which I'm really grateful for. And it was a long period of time. So when he was diagnosed, I had actually just started, I was a young lawyer and I remember, I'm not gonna remember, I could send you this poem. There's this poem, and it just really captured how I felt, which is the sense that like you're driving down the street and people are on the sidewalk, like eating and drinking and having fun and your entire world has turned upside down. And it's like, how can that be happening? Like how can the world still be spinning and people are just going about their lives when everything has completely like changed in my world? So that, I really remember feeling that way when he had his diagnosis. And it wasn't, he had an episode in his office where he fainted and they didn't know. They didn't know what was wrong. And it took honestly months and months of a lot of different kinds of testing. Oh shit, really? And he had a very rare cancer called Myelofibrosis, which is basically like your bone marrow stops working. So it's not typical. And they, you know, it just took them like a really long time to figure it out. But when they did, they gave him three to five years to live and he ended up living 10 years. Wow. Which was really, yeah. His, his oncologist said he was his longest living patient for many years. So he you know, part of that's maybe luck. He also had a very strong will to live, and he was doing all kinds of. Clinical trials. There were, there were no on-label medications for his disease when he was diagnosed or even, you know, even during his lifetime there was one medication that was approved. But what happens in this disease is that your spleen starts taking over the job of your bone marrow. So it gets quite enlarged and if it ruptures you'll die. So, there's a new medication, or it was new at the end of his disease progression to reduce the size of the spleen, but his already had been so large that they had to remove it. So he was not eligible for that medication by the time it became on-label. But he basically was in clinical trials, you know, just trying different medications over a 10 year period. And it was really hard. Yeah, it was really hard. His quality of life was substantially affected. He couldn't work. He had extremely low energy. He was. You know, he'd have to get blood transfusions and he was in these clinical trials, which, you know, when you're taking these kinds of medicines, they can have pretty severe side effects. But I would also say he was extremely focused on living, and my dad's name was Harvey. And he and my stepmom kind of had this rule, I call it the Harvey rule, but it was probably more my stepmom's rule. Her name is Karen. And the rule was basically if you get bad test results or you have a bad day, you have 24 hours to, like, they call it like eat worms, like feel terrible mm-hmm. And just be like in the dumps. And then after the 24 hours you have to get up and you just keep moving forward. And I think it's pretty remarkable that both of them were able to do that, given everything that my dad went through. And it's something that I like to try to live by when things don't go the way that I want them to. Not just to honor him, but because I think it's a good way to live.
CJ:Absolutely. Yeah. It is. I think it's, it, one, it, it gives us space and then two, it gives us a deadline of like, all right, get the fuck up and let's keep going.
Ashley G:Right? What's the alternative? And so my father died actually in the hospital. He had had a bone marrow transplant. It did not take, and he and my stepmom were talking about getting him home to die, but they thought he would die on the way'cause he was so weak. And I don't know how many of your listeners know this, but many hospitals have, like a wing of the hospital that's basically like a palliative care wing. Mm-hmm. And it's really beautiful. It's like extremely quiet and peaceful and the rooms have like windows looking out. So as an alternative, I know, you know, he wanted to be home, but that couldn't happen. So this was sort of the second best thing. And honestly, by the time he got to that wing, his eyes were closed. He wasn't talking and he wasn't opening his eyes anymore. And he was there for several days and I was actually holding his hand and I was with him when he died.
CJ:Wow. That's amazing.
Ashley G:Yeah, it is. Uh, it was like, it is a. Blessing and it was very difficult.
CJ:Yeah. So I want to go back a little bit, but before we do, yeah. I wanna stay on that moment.'cause I've, so I've been, I'd have to officially count, but it's definitely been enough at people's bedside as they took the last breath that I can count on two hands. Wow. My wife's obviously the most profound, but I'm curious. I, I, I know very well that, like, that beautiful relief and moment of that, but also the really hard side of it. What, yeah. Was going through your mind, what were you feeling? This was a 10 year journey which I want to get into, but after all of that, seeing everything that your dad went through, you mentioned his quality of life. Wasn't amazing and, and knowing what my wife went through, I can only imagine some of the things that, that you guys went through as a family and, and you specifically, like take us back to that moment and like what were those thoughts and the feelings that you were having?
Ashley G:I mean, I think I, I have to say sadness was the strongest feeling because, I mean, my dad and I were just like so in tune and to think that I wouldn't have him there with me was just unbearable, honestly. But there was also the, the last year of his life was quite difficult. He was mostly in the hospital that year because he had to chemotherapy to sort of like beat back the cancer so that he could have the bone marrow transplant. Mm-hmm. And it had a, you know, it takes a very, like, large toll and you know, he was like a skeleton. He, he, he couldn't eat. He was very, very thin and it, and it affected his brain. Absolutely. And so I think that there was just part of me that was grateful for him to have the relief from it. And my stepmom and I have talked about this, like, if we could do it over, I think we would encourage him to do the last year differently. Mm-hmm. But of course you can't, you can't go back and do that. But I do think he was, he was at a teaching hospital and I think they wanted to try every intervention. And I am not sure. That we got all of the information in terms of, you know, what is the likelihood of success for him with a bone marrow transplant? And if we had gotten that data, would he and my stepmom have made the same decision? I, you know, and I don't know, there, it's not answerable, but I do think it's worth talking about so that if people are going through that, that they can, if they want the information, they can ask for it. Because I think doctors are wonderful, but they're not always going to give you that information unless you really specifically ask for it.
CJ:Yeah. I think that's worth calling out. We had not exactly the same situation with my wife, but uh, towards the end, the last year, she ended up getting. So she originally started with metastatic disease, me, metastatic breast cancer. So it was breast and bone her spine and ribs, and it was that for a very long time until it went into her liver. And then the last year it was bowel, liver, lungs, bone. And then they found 17 tumors in her brain and oh my, so this had already been a year of her doing treatment for her liver. So once they decided they wanted to try to tackle the brain, the cancer, she had to do radiation. It was 14, I'm sorry, it was 10 sessions, so over two weeks, right? Monday through Friday. And before they did it, they wanted to do testing on her liver to make sure after they finished the brain radiation, if her body could handle more chemo. They did the testing. Then we heard nothing, which was odd. Usually they got back to us right away or posted the results. They let her go through all of the radiation. We got to the last day, it was a Thursday night, so she was gonna go Friday. My uncle came over, he looked at her, he brought me downstairs and he said, it's over. We need to call the doctor. Something's wrong. And I called the doctor and it was the same thing. They withheld the information. They're like, unfortunately her liver is shot. It's Swiss cheese. She can't handle any more chemo. And in that moment I was like, why the fuck would you let her go through this brain radiation? It destroyed her. Like her last two weeks of her life, she was in bed. She couldn't do anything. She couldn't talk. Like we could have had two weeks of her writing all the cards for the kids, having conversations that we never got. And by the time I was able to panic and be like, okay, I need to know all these things. She could barely talk. I. So I think, yeah, it's, it was a long-winded way to say, I think it is important we have to, on some level, be advocates and push for the information sometimes.
Ashley G:Yeah. And I think, and I, I do really wanna say like, my dad had wonderful doctors, and I think that it comes from a place of the oath that they took to preserve life and that they're really focused on that, but they're not. I, I do think I also talked recently on my podcast to a palliative care doctor, and I think that there needs to be much more integration of palliative care with other kinds of care for terminal illnesses. And you know, because there's this other side of it, like there are choices for families to make where, you know. Death is not always the worst option. Right. It, it's, it's, but, but having the time to have those conversations write those letters can mean a huge difference in the wake that you leave in your death, you know? And one of the things that my stepmom still really struggles with is she feels like she never got a goodbye with my dad. And he didn't write a, no, he didn't, you know, he didn't do any of those things. I really, really believe that my father thought he was gonna beat this. And so it was out of that place, but that's not the way it worked out. And then she was left in this void. And honestly, 10 years later, I think she still feels like she's somewhat in that void. Mm-hmm. And so I do think having this balance between. The therapies or the modalities that we go down with our loved ones and the outcomes, you know, the impact of those modalities and realistically talking about the outcomes is really important for people to hear so that if or when they're in that situation, they can make the right decision for them because there is no right decision. It's really just what's right for you and your loved ones.
CJ:Yeah, I totally agree. It's, I mean, death is hard. It's tricky. It's very tricky. Some people can't even confront their own mortality. You know, that's a whole nother thing I would say. Many people can't. I know. And my, I have I'm in a couple of groups, one specifically for men with women with cancer, wives with cancer. And it breaks my heart sometimes to see their heartbreaking and not being able to talk to their wife about it. Yeah. And on some level I feel so grateful for how my wife handled her cancer and her death, because we talked about it pretty often and she was willing to be open about it and confront it and not, not let it affect our ability to live life until she passed. Yeah. So speaking of living life, it was a 10 year journey for your dad, for you stepmom. You mentioned it was when you were, uh, in law school, right? Or just brand new lawyer? I was practicing, just practicing, but I was in so new career starting assuming within those 10 years you started to have your children. Is that true or was it after?
Ashley G:Yeah, it's actually like when my dad was diagnosed, I thought, he's never gonna see me married. He's never gonna meet my children, and. He got to do all of those things and, and I got to experience all of those things with him. So I do really like to focus on all the things that we did get. Yeah. Which is, which was wonderful, you know? Yeah. That's amazing. Even if he couldn't be the grandpa who was like running around after the kids, he still got to meet them and know them, and they got to know him. So
CJ:That's awesome. And that's a, yeah. Great way to look at it. Going through all of that, these really big moments in your life while also watching your dad struggle, how did you find yourself dealing with the impending potential death of your dad while balancing new career, children, new marriage, like these are massive, massive, massive moments in our life that take all of our energy. And you mentioned like there was a lot of treatment for your dad. How did you balance all of that? Like what, and what did you do to help with going through all that?
Ashley G:So I think, I mean, my honest answer was I just put one foot in front of the other at the time. And I worked, my career was incredibly intense also. So, and I was not, my stepmom was the day-to-day rock. I mean, she is amazing. She took him to every doctor's appointment, every, every everything, you know, and and that really did become their life. Mm. You know, it was like almost a daily event. So I, I really feel like I need to, and, and you, you know, you did that for your wife, I'm sure. And that is a, I. That is a very different and very intensive role. So I was not the primary caregiver for my dad but he was my dad and we were extremely close. So it was it was hard, I guess in maybe a different way. Yeah. So I, my dad was also like a very, like glasses half full kind of guy, so that also helped. His attitude was predominantly amazing, you know, other than these like little bits he would have or he would get depressed. But and, and so I wanted to, and maybe I wasn't conscious of it, but I think I always wanted to honor his struggle by really like loving my life. And you know, I. I kind of say it was a miracle I met my husband because I was working really insane hours. And so I really feel like I found, you know, my soulmate in my husband and I feel very, very grateful for that. And then we had children, we have two boys and they're teenagers now, so they're difficult, but they're also amazing. Yep, yep. And I was able to share these parts of my life with my dad and my stepmom, with whom I'm still very close. And so I think I just, I just lived, that might sound simple, but I think I really just tried to live now that now I'm 50 now. And so it's actually kind of interesting. My dad was diagnosed. Right around the, like close to the top. I got married after that, but it was not too far, too far after. And then he died when I was around 40. Now it's, you know, I'm 50. So it's kind of these like moments in time and I reflect a lot now on my father's journey and his death on my life and the fact that I will die and what that means for my children, right? I mean, obviously we don't know when these things are coming, right? But I am a big believer that we should think about them and plan for them and talk about them with our children and with our loved ones. And so I'm trying to do a lot more of that now. I mean, I recently had a conversation with my stepmom about what does she want, you know, the end of her life to look like. Does she wanna stay in her house? Does she wanna, you know, all of these things that, so ma so often we don't talk about. And so now looking back. I do feel like I could have done some things differently and maybe more intentionally with my dad. Mm-hmm. And I, I'm a big proponent of telling people what they mean to you both verbally and in writing. And, and I don't wanna say I didn't do that. I think my dad and I did do that. But I think you can always do that more. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I think we do, we generally, as humans, we do the best we can, whether it's parenting or in jobs or in whatever it is we're doing. And I think I did the best that I could, you know, working through my father's illness and his death and, and I'm still working through it. Right. And I'm guessing you feel the same way. Yes. Like, it's not, grief is not something that is solvable or that goes away. I, for me, it has morphed and changed and it shifts, but, but it's, it will always be part of who I am.
CJ:Yeah, I agree. It's the way that, like, I've tried to visualize it'cause I'm, I'm a very visual person is Yeah. I just imagine a container and our grief we like, as that, that event happens, it creates this grief and all the work that we do to process and heal and move forward increases that container, which then surrounds the grief. So it's like the container was just big enough to hold the grief in the beginning, and as time and work goes on, it gets bigger and bigger, bigger, making it easier to hold it, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and allowing it to be filled with other things. Yeah. And I fully believe that the capacity that we have to endure that grief, we have that same and equal capacity to love and experience joy and abundance in our life. And that's what I've like, tried to hold onto of like, these things are going to bring those things into my life, the more that I'm able to, to kind of hold those. So for you as you've mentioned, it's, it's been this journey and I agree, like it's still going for me. I mean, I'm four years out now, but it's like this year has been actually probably one of the most pivotal, the years. What has that journey looked like for you after losing your dad?
Ashley G:Well, and I don't know, I've, I've listened to several episodes of your podcast. I don't know if everybody talks about this, but. I, in immediate aftermath of my dad's death, I really needed to be alone. And, and I don't know if you talked to Gu, like I think it's interesting for people to hear what works, you know, because sometimes people need to hear like, it's okay to be alone or it's okay to need people, or it's like there's not a right or wrong way to do it. That's, but I also like to say, I think like you don't find grief. Grief finds you like the journey lays itself before you and I when I was in grade school, my best friend's father died and she turned to other friends at the time and it was extremely hurtful to me. I didn't understand it. I was relatively young. And it wasn't until my father died that I understood, like grief kind of chooses for you the path. And and for me that was really spending time by myself. So. My dad would write songs. He played guitar and he would write songs for like big family events. And he, like, the greatest gift he gave us is he recorded them all. Wow. And he recorded them all in the years. It took him like several years to do it with an introduction to each song, what it was about. And then he would have other artists come in to play different instruments. So there is like a very, very like, high production quality. And so I listened to his voice and his music. I went through emails that he had written me over the years. I mean, I really just like sat for hours doing that. I also listened to songs. We like to listen together. I used to I'm gonna date myself, but I would make mixed tapes. Yes, me too. And I would make them for my dad. And I would listen to those, the songs that we would like, music we would like to listen to together. And in the, like, first I would say weak after he died, that's really what I did. And that gave me the most comfort, you know, in that time. And then I needed people. I think we all need people, but for me, I needed to be alone first. Mm-hmm. And still sometimes I need that. And like I'll hear a song that we loved or listened to one of his songs, and I just would start crying, you know, in the car or wherever I am. And sometimes I think I just need that. Mm-hmm. You know? I also, as time has gone by, I, I am just continue to be so grateful to him for who he was as a human and as my father, what he taught me. That hopefully I'm teaching my own children and I definitely still feel like he's around me. Like, I think about him all, all the time, you know? And so I think that as there's a little bit of distance, there's this some sense that like we, yes, of course we lose the human embodiment Yeah. Of the person we love. But there is, there is a soul. Like there is something that we can feel that we can both miss and find joy in. Like remembering like those joyful times. And I think I have more of that as the years pass. Yeah.
CJ:Is there, are there things that you connect to to connect with him? Like are there signs, like a lot of people have different rituals or they, they have signs that they believe are from them or just there's specific things that they do that help them remember or connect? Do you have any of those?
Ashley G:I don't have signs. For me I think it's, music is probably like the biggest medium, and I think that's because my dad really loved music. Mm-hmm. And I listened to his music like that he made for us a lot. So, and it, whether it's his songs or songs that we would listen to and some of them are funny, like we used to watch So Gold together, which is also dating myself. But, but like Laura Brannigan and Prince mm-hmm. And all of these amazing artists were on solid gold. So I hear those songs and I always think of my dad. And then there are some like, you know, newer songs that weren't here when he was here that just remind me of him. So for me, I think it is a lot of the time it is, it comes through music.
CJ:Yeah. Music. That, that's a big one for me. Music is so important to me and it makes me feel so deeply. Yeah. And if, you know, there's certain songs that remind me of certain moments in my life. I mean, we had, we were 18 when my wife and I started dating and she passed away and when we were 35. So there are so many big life events that happened through your twenties, thirties. Like I have all these memories of all these different songs and it just takes me right back. To those moments that we had. Yeah. But you mentioned something that just sat so heavy in me and that's, we don't find grief. Grief finds us. I mentioned earlier that like this year has been probably one of the biggest years for my grief journey because in the beginning, so I've been in therapy for 15, 16 years and I have always been on this kind of growth journey, healing kind of path because of the severity of like my depression, anxiety, the things that I've gone through in life, aside from losing my wife. So it felt natural that when I did lose her, that I'm like, yeah, I'm just gonna fucking put everything into this. I'm gonna have my tools. And I'm like, I'm gonna try this modality of therapy. I'm gonna try that eso esoteric thing. I'm gonna like, I'm just gonna put everything that I can into it and I'm gonna heal. And I'm gonna fucking crush grief. I like genuinely believe that even if I didn't admit it, I was like, I am gonna grieve better than anybody has ever grieved. What? Arrogance? Because this year I hit a wall and Yeah, grief it found me. And it, and you were talking about like, it puts us on that path. Holy shit. Does it do that? And I'm now where I'm like, okay, I have to give in. I need to give in that my life has so dramatically changed. I have so dramatically changed and there are parts of me that are gonna need time to heal because I am so impatient and I don't wanna take time. I'm like, this is frustrating. I'm like, I want this in my life now, but I can't. And I have to just let it move in the time that it's gonna move. But yeah. Yeah. So I think that's, that's an amazing statement that you made. With that and something that's important to point out as well as us grieving differently. In the beginning, I actually, in the beginning, meaning like the first year at least, I didn't wanna be around anybody that knew me as Ariana's husband. Yeah. That was family, friends. I needed to go find a new community because I was somebody different and I didn't know who I was, but I know that I wasn't the person that all those people knew me as. And for me, my grief meant finding a brand new community, brand new friends, and just exploring who I am. Yeah. So it was, it was, yeah, it's, it's very unique. It's very interesting. So you mentioned that your, like you mentioned how it's like still with you, you're still dealing with it and there's been some changes now. What are those changes that you've been experiencing or things you've been noticing recently?
Ashley G:Well, one of the things as you were talking that I was thinking about and I'm reading this beautiful book and I'm gonna have to send it to you. Yeah.'cause I feel like I'm gonna, I'm gonna ruin the title, but it's something like the Smell of Dust on Water. Have you heard of it? So two guests that I've talked to recommended it. Okay. Who don't know each other. And it's it's very interesting and I think some people it will not appeal to, but and some of the writing is like a little bit much for me, but the concepts make so much sense to me. And one of them is how we have grief. We have grief. Everybody has grief in their lives. Mm-hmm. The author actually says, like, the first experience of grief is being born like this cry when we come out of the womb is a cry of grief because we have been held in this like amazing place, our mother's womb, this safe, like quiet. Like we have our mother's heartbeat and then we don't, and all of the, we never had to breathe air and then we have to breathe air, you know, all of these different things. But, but also just we have grief in. So like, I do feel like I am starting to experience grief that my older son is gonna go off to college next year and my younger son is not going off to college, but they are doing what is biologically normal and they're separating from us Yeah. And doing their own thing. And I, my husband and I are definitely experiencing grief, uh, through that. So I think one of the things that I'm really noticing is that. It is. We have, there is, there's grief in everyday life. And it's okay to acknowledge that and to experience that too. And I think the risk is when we don't actually experience the grief, then it's like anger. Mm-hmm. Or other emotions. Like, it, it, it doesn't grow and morph. It just sort of sticks and we want it to grow and morph and change. So I think it's just, I think one of the things that I'm more aware of is how is how grief is not just tied to death. Right. And it's okay to grieve things in your life that are changing. And actually I think like we must do that to move forward in a healthy way.
CJ:Yeah. I agree a hundred percent. Yeah. And I. It's, it's a universal experience as much as the human condition is a universal experience.
Ashley G:Absolutely. And we
CJ:don't talk about it.
Ashley G:And we don't talk about it. No. Yeah.
CJ:It boggles my mind. And I mean, that's the whole mission of all the, the companies that I started is like, we just need to bring grief out of the shadows because we're all suffering and nobody's talking about it. And if we all talked about it, or enough of us talked about it, we wouldn't know. We're not fucking alone. And there's ways to, to to, to approach it with a healthy mindset, you know, as opposed to maybe non-beneficial coping strategies and things of that nature.
Ashley G:Right. For sure. One of which is to ignore it. Yeah,
CJ:exactly. Maybe the most common. Yes, definitely distraction and, uh, ignoring it and pushing it down and pretending it doesn't exist yet. It's affecting even our physical health. Right.
Ashley G:Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
CJ:You have mentioned a couple of times the podcast, which we definitely will throw links up there and, and I want you to shout that out, but I'm curious what inspired you to start it. So you mentioned you did a series on, on death and dying, and I would love to hear more because, uh, I am intensely curious about other folks who take pain or experiences in life and transmute them into something creative and beautiful. So if you want Yeah, and if you're willing, yeah. I would love to hear more about like what inspired you to start it. What you have found, uh, in your life as you've produced this podcast.'cause I know this has been. Pretty life changing for me to, to be talking with so many people. But I'd love to to learn a little bit more about that.
Ashley G:So I I started, so I was, I practiced law for a couple of decades and when I moved my family from California to Utah I wasn't gonna practice lie, I wasn't gonna take the bar again. I just was kind of, I think I was, that chapter had closed. Yeah. And I spent really a good amount of time thinking about what I did wanna do. And I ended up starting a company. We design and produce in small batch production, home goods like glassware and ceramics and things like that. Yeah. And the goal is to create, not to recreate things that already exist. It might be very similar, but like the way you hold a glass in your hand, or, I just really believe that objects can help us. Can help us be more present in our environment mm-hmm. If there are objects that we feel comfortable with. Yeah. So that's fundamentally like the goal. And I decided to, and, and I should say like the mission of the company is to get people to connect to all that matters. Mm-hmm. So, so many companies are about joy and I just feel like life is so much broader and we have so many emotions, anxiety and fear, and grief and sadness and joy and happiness. Like we have all of them and we should connect with all of them. And that in order for us to increase our connection as humans, which I feel like has drifted in recent years we need to, we need to reconnect with all of our emotions. Mm-hmm. And we need to learn how relearn, I should say how to. Respectfully disagree, how to have difficult conversations. So my podcast, which is called On the Table with Ashley, is really focused on increasing curiosity and decreasing judgment. Mm. And like, broadly speaking. And and then I've moved to a serious format, and the Death and Dying series is my first series because one, it enables me to go deeper and do more research. And hopefully people can learn more from it. And, and I started with that one because it was around the 10 year anniversary of my dad's death. And two, because I feel like it is, it is perhaps the most untalked about subject that is really hard to talk about or can be, and is also just can't be more important. I mean, I don't know what is more important. So, so I talked to a palliative care doctor. I talked to two people in grief. One who lost a child, one who lost both of their parents to suicide. And I was telling you, I talked to somebody who runs Death Cafes and somebody who talks about ethical wills, which is basically like intentional communications. Anyway, it's like a wide range of conversations. And like you were saying, you've grown so much during your podcast. Mm-hmm. I feel like it's such a gift to myself. Yeah. And I am learning so much and and hopefully other people will learn as well. And I think that the more we talk about difficult things, the easier that they become. And that's what you're doing with your podcast. And I think a lot of times in grief, particularly people feel very alone. And I think you want people to not feel alone. And I, I want the same thing. And then I also want people to reignite their curiosity. I think when we're curious, the world just becomes much better all around.
CJ:Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Curiosity is what allows us to, probably the wrong word, but have a non, non-judgmental approach to life. I think when we're curious, right? I mean, yeah,
Ashley G:yeah, yeah. I was talking to somebody who gave a TED talk about curiosity and, and they said, and I'm not gonna get it right exactly, but by the time we're in middle school, we basically stop asking questions. Hmm. And I don't know if it's what it is about society that tells us that we should stop asking questions. Right. But it's, if we're intentional about it, we can find it again. And when we're curious, you're exactly right. Like when we're curious, judgment kind of shifts to the side, right? And it doesn't mean we're gonna agree with everybody on everything, but if we're curious, we're gonna understand them better. And like, again, we need each other as humans, and so we need to be able to understand each other.
CJ:I agree. I, I, I wonder if that curiosity gets squashed because of how we meaning society are raising children. You know, I have my N of one, which is me with my kids. And there are so many times when I just can't handle the questions and I'll just shut it down. Yeah. Right. And I'm like intentionally trying to create an environment of curiosity. So much so that my kids get so annoyed with me'cause I ask so many questions and then I try to get them to ask questions. How are you feeling? What does that really mean? Yeah. What was the situation? What's going on? Like, even benign things, like really simple things. So I could just see it's like we're just squashing that in children. I mean, I know that was my experience. Stop asking questions, just do what I say. Right? Right. Whereas like, I so desperately want my kids to walk away feeling like they were able to voice one their opinion and Yeah. Ask questions of me even if I didn't agree or we had to come to a conclusion where. My, you know, what the decision I made had to persist versus them influencing it. But there have been times where I have taken in that information and changed my decision based on their experience and stuff. But but so I want to ask, like you mentioned that it's been impactful for you to, to do this series and, and to do this podcast, but what has that impact been on your life?
Ashley G:Well, specifically for this series, I feel like I have less fear of death.
CJ:Wow. Really?
Ashley G:Yeah, and it was interesting talking to the person who runs the death cafes. He often will start, you know, people will come in and he'll have like, something up on the, like a, like a pad or something and you can put, you can put a sticky on like one to 10, your fear of death kind of. And then at the end they'll talk about where they are. I think that. I think it's like life. When you prepare for something, like you study for a test, you feel less nervous going into the test. Mm-hmm. I think that really like diving into the whole subject. Another one of the episodes was on human composting. There's this amazing company in Washington state, the, the first to do human composting, which is different from green burial. Oh, okay. So you basically like become, you become like a truck bed of nutrient rich soil that gives back to the earth. Mm-hmm. It's totally fascinating. But so from everything from like, when I die, what do I want to happen to my body? Mm-hmm. To, to what do I want to tell my children now? Right. To a little bit of like letting go. And I think this is like, I think I said this in one of my episodes, but like to me it is, parenting is a great analogy. When I am at my best parenting, which is not always same, but when I'm at my best, I am letting my kids be who they are, not who I want them to be. And I am recognizing that their path is not my path and that I'm still their parent. So I still, you know, want to mold the path. Mm-hmm. But I also have to recognize that they're gonna choose things that I don't want them to choose or that, that I wouldn't have chosen for myself. And that that is actually showing me that they're growing up right. And that, that, that is the right thing. When I fight against that is when I'm at my worst parenting. And I think thinking about death and grief are is the same. So as I learn more about it and I think more deeply about it. Then I feel more peace because I, I'm planning for it. If I ignore it, then it's just fear for me, you know? And that's not to say that I don't have any fear, because I still do, like, that would not be honest. But I would say that my fear has substantially lessened.
CJ:That's wild. I, I have been on my own journey as well with like having my fear of death be 10. I, I know it's less than 10, but I don't know honestly where it is right now.
Ashley G:Yeah.
CJ:But in this experience that you've had and kind of this fear lessening, uh, I'd wanna take it a step further. Do you feel prepared for death?
Ashley G:I think I do. Yeah. And maybe that's because also, I mean, I'm a little older than you. Yeah. And I do think that I. As you get older, you start to think about death more. And, but, but for many people that's just like, push it, it away. Yeah. You know, it, it's that kind of thinking. For me, it's more like I'm trying to embrace that and be able to say like, I don't know what happens after death. I don't know if anything happens after death, but I, but I do know that I can't control it. I'm not in control and obviously I can do things. I eat healthy, I exercise. Right? Like I'm doing the things that I can do, but I can't control if I get cancer or if Right. Either there or if, like, there are lots of things I can't control. And I think accepting that is, is a very graceful thing. Mm-hmm. To do for yourself.
CJ:What situations or behaviors have changed in your life since? Learning that, or I guess feeling and knowing that you're not in control and kind of giving into that.
Ashley G:Well I think, and I say this to my kids too, like you, I would say this to them when they were little, like somebody does something mm-hmm. Or says something to make you angry. Like you can't control what somebody, the inputs, you control the output. Right. So I just feel like I'm more focused on things that fill my cup. Ah, yes. If that makes sense. So I am I'm really trying, like with respect to my health, I'm trying to focus on longevity and what my body can do, not what I look like. Mm-hmm. Which is very different from when I was young. With my friends. I'm trying to focus on who I actually enjoy spending time with and letting the rest fall away. And spending a lot of time with my husband, which I'm very like I love to do, and my kids when they wanna be with me. Yep. But just, I guess intentionality and trying to focus on the things that actually help me have a good day. Not the things that in theory should.
CJ:Yeah. That, and that's a, there's a big delta between the two. Yeah. Big Delta and maybe a, like, starting to veer a little bit off of, of the, the topic of the show. But I'm, I'm curious because I, my wife got diagnosed on my 30th birthday. I know there's like these stereotypical things that we go through in our twenties and our thirties, our forties, our fifties, et cetera. And it's always the thing of like, if I knew things would be different if I could go back, like we have all these memes in society, I. And I certainly like had my life and my thinking shifted when my wife was diagnosed. We, we then focused on exactly what you were saying is like, what are we gonna do? We have maybe 10 years, we only got five. How are we gonna live our life to the fullest? How do we live 40 years and five in 10 years? But then she died and I lost sight of that. I, I wasn't able to grasp onto that intentionality because I could barely get out of bed. And even as I was able to get out of bed and kind of get back to life, I found myself maybe I'm just gonna work more and maybe I'll chase money. Maybe I'll chase this. Maybe I'll like my ability to be intentional, diminished. And now I'm here and I'm trying to again, live with intentionality and, sorry, we, we, we went a mile to get a, around a block, but. You have come to this place? You, you said you're 50. Yeah. Do you think when you were 40 that you would've been able through somebody telling you, or you diving deep into depth, do you think you would've been able to adopt this mindset? Or are we kind of just biologically trapped in these decades of our life and have to have these learned experiences before we can finally grasp some of these concepts?
Ashley G:I mean, it's a great question. I don't know that I'm, you know, I'm no expert. Yeah. I'm just a, I'm just one person. I'm an N of one too. But my gut is that it's not actually that we're trapped in these decades of life and we have to have these learned experiences, but I do think that we have to have an open-mindedness. And I also really believe that we have seasons in our life. When I was 40, I was on the treadmill of work and I was raising young children. And I don't think I had, no, I know that I did not have space or time to really deeply contemplate these things. Could I have? Yes. But I didn't. But somebody else at that age could have. Mm-hmm. So I think it's not so much the age, but more where we are in, in our lives, like everything else that's going on in our lives. And then on top of it, our openness to experience and to like, really digging into things. And some people I think never get there, honestly.
CJ:Right. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it,'cause it's a, we still have to make the choice, right. You gotta make the choice. Right. And
Ashley G:it's not, and it's hard work. Like, it's not, it's not easy.
CJ:It's not like that. And that's something, you know, I'll. I'll get generous and kind comments like, you know, I can't believe you did this or whatever in, in relation to my grief, or even with the relationship that I had with my wife. Like, people would kind of hold it up on a pedestal of like, man, if I could have a marriage like that. And I'm like, but you don't understand what we went through, because there was a lot of years where it was fucking hell and we had to push so hard to get to that place. And I, it, it, it's almost the like survivor bias of like, oh my gosh, look at all these people with these successful X, Y and z whatever success means to you. But like, we don't realize all the people that fall off. Like it takes so much work to go after these things. It takes so much work to heal and especially in grief. This has been physically painful. I. To like re-experience this. Yeah. And to heal from it and to grow in it. It's physically painful and, and I have to keep going there. Keep going to that Well, in order to move forward. Yeah. Yeah.
Ashley G:I also really believe almost everything worth having in life is hard.
CJ:Yeah. It is. I think logically we know that, but I don't think we want to exper like experience that or feel that. Right. We want a shortcut. I do.
Ashley G:Right. For
CJ:sure. I would love to. Yeah. And I mean, who doesn't? Yeah. But it would be less valuable to us.
Ashley G:Definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, and it's good to remember that. And I, I say this to my kids too, like if whatever, like a breakup or like, my son didn't get into a college, he wanted recently, like. There's this phrase that I'm sure everybody's heard this too shall pass. And it's important to remember that in good times and in bad times, because the good times are also gonna pass. Yes. And people need to remember that. But it's really important to remember that bad times will also pass. And it doesn't mean again that like it goes away or you fully heal, but it changes and it is not as acute. And I think that's something that young people actually do need to like have lived experience to learn. Yeah. But I try to tell them that because everything feels so big, you know? And I think it is really important to remember that.
CJ:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I agree. I, I try to think of similar to this, two shall pass is the good times are never as good as you think they are. And the bad are never as bad as you think they are. You know, it's like we, we, we need to keep that perspective. And then going back to the idea of like seasons of life, that feels so much better to me than decades of life because like as I approach my 40th birthday in March it is hitting me harder than I thought it would. I've never thought about age before until my wife died. Then I realized, oh, holy shit, I'm a lot older. I'm not 18 anymore. But it always felt like I was 18 with my wife. You know, like we had all that history and all that time together and I was like, I gotta go date. I gotta go be whoever the, whoever I am. And like age started to hit me. But it feels like, yeah, if I, if I could frame it as these are seasons and I've been through maybe seasons that folks my age haven't been through yet. And I think of that with my kids, like they've been through experiences that a lot of people. Haven't been through yet at such an early age. Yeah. That it, it, uh, maybe that's where that wisdom can come through is is through those seasons. I think so. Yeah.
Ashley G:I mean, I certainly think so. Yeah. Yeah.
CJ:So, uh, if, if you're willing, one thing we love to ask our guests is if you had one or two favorite stories about your dad, we'd love to hear it.
Ashley G:Okay. Here's one. So, my dad loved food and every year for my birthday, I have, my older sisters are identical twins. Okay. Uh, so we would, he would take us, he and my stepmom would take us to like a fancy French restaurant for once you were 10 years old, you got to go to this fancy French restaurant, and they would go, just the two of them. I would get to bring a friend. So one time we went and we had this. Huge meal at this fancy French restaurant. And then on the way home we stopped and we got a dozen donuts. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. Steve loves, he loved donuts. And then we like, you know, stood around the kitchen mm-hmm. Table and ate donuts. That's amazing. And that, that to me is like such a it makes me just smile and it is like, so my dad, so on on his death day, which is kind of like a term I'm trying to use. Yeah. This year I decided I wanted to like, I would like to do something on the day of his death to like remember him and kind of like honor him, pay it forward in a small way. So I, I got four dozen donuts and I gave them to friends and I and you know, I was told them like how much my dad loved donuts and that I was thinking of him that day. And so just spreading like a little bit of like love and joy. In a very small
CJ:way. Oh, I love that. My wife loved donuts and on her death anniversary, we bring her favorite donuts to the grave site. We leave one for her and then me, me and the kids eat a donut. Oh, that's great. Yeah. That's amazing. I appreciate you sharing your dad with us, sharing all the things that you've experienced, the wisdom and all of that. I feel like I could talk to you for another hour but definitely wanna be respectful of your time and appreciate you so much coming on the show. And if you wanna shout out the company and also the podcast, I would love, love that. Great.
Ashley G:Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's really been wonderful. I, any opportunity I have to talk about my dad. I honestly like, it brings me joy too, so I really appreciate it. So my company is called Amand, which is French for, to take care of your soul. And it's, you can go to our website, which is A-M-E-A-T-E-N-D-R e.com, and then the podcast is called On the Table with Ashley, which you can find wherever you listen to your podcast. That's amazing. Thank
CJ:you so much. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of the day after you can find this podcast and more at our website at ww the day after com. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd really appreciate if you could take a moment to leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcast.
